Why do too many e-bike riders demand speed?

[Janice]

I have ridden a pushbike and ridden an ebike that does 35km/h on the flat. Based on my experience, I feel riding the 35km/h ebike is safer as there is less speed differential and less driver frustration. I think I am the most qualified person to make that judgment because I am the only person here who has experienced both these things.

[AUbicycles]

I think I am the most qualified person to make that judgment because I am the only person here who has experienced both these things.

While you mention that you are not sure about the popularity of ebikes in Australia in 2015, it is a bold claim that you are the only one here who has ridden both a faster ebike (35kmh) and regular bike (and thus are the most qualified person to make a judgement).

You could, for example, ask..... me.

I ride ebikes for testing (though not for my personal commuting or sports cycling) and have ridden a lot of brands / types of motors and styles if ebikes. Also visited factories where they build ebike motors and ebikes. I have taken part in dealer/service workshops for ebikes and published a lot of ebike content... the ebike buyers guide we published was in 2013.

But I am a sample size of one... and I am sure that others here can also contribute with experience and expertise. The broad selection of input makes this a far richer discussion.

[Comedian]

I think I am the most qualified person to make that judgment because I am the only person here who has experienced both these things.

While you mention that you are not sure about the popularity of ebikes in Australia in 2015, it is a bold claim that you are the only one here who has ridden both a faster ebike (35kmh) and regular bike (and thus are the most qualified person to make a judgement).

You could, for example, ask..... me.

I ride ebikes for testing (though not for my personal commuting or sports cycling) and have ridden a lot of brands / types of motors and styles if ebikes. Also visited factories where they build ebike motors and ebikes. I have taken part in dealer/service workshops for ebikes and published a lot of ebike content... the ebike buyers guide we published was in 2013.

But I am a sample size of one... and I am sure that others here can also contribute with experience and expertise. The broad selection of input makes this a far richer discussion.

Hey I've ridden both. I put that in my comment that at 25kph limit on an e-bike you feel like a sitting duck in traffic. Yes you can pedal faster than that but in general e-bikes don't encourage it (big, heavy, upright etc). On a roadbike I can pretty easily do 30 in general, and I feel much safer on the roadie in traffic.

Perhaps we also need to recognise that "250w" e-bikes seem to in recent years be significantly more powerful than the first run of "250w" e-bikes. My mid drive 250w bosch active line is circa 2017. The new mid drive bikes just sail past me like I'm standing still. I've got no idea how the new bikes have so much horsepower. They must have bigger watts. Let's call them 250 WATTS.

So even though our bike had the limiter removed for a while it really didn't go much faster than 30 anyway unless the owner puts in a lot of watts themselves. I doubt a new rider could generate the pedal input to do over 30 on the flat.

[1Rowdy1]

I am surprised anyone on any bike feels safer or less safe around cars by increasing or de-creasing their speed by 5 - 7 klm/h

[find_bruce]

I am surprised anyone on any bike feels safer or less safe around cars by increasing or de-creasing their speed by 5 - 7 klm/h

Depends entirely on the traffic - on my commute on the way in to the Sydney CBD, the average motor vehicle speed is 18 km/h. On the way home its 24 km/h. The average includes time at traffic lights, so moving speed is a bit higher

On the way home, until I turn off the main rd I am much more comfortable increase my speed up by 5-7 km/h (typically ~30 to 35 km/h) as I am then moving at the speed of other traffic with the result of far fewer close encounters of the idiot kind.

I thought the average motor vehicle speed might be lower because I'm going into the CBD, but if you exclude the motorways & handful of roads with high speeds, the average in Sydney at commuting times is ~ 33 km/h

[stevenaaus]

I have ridden a pushbike and ridden an ebike that does 35km/h on the flat. Based on my experience, I feel riding the 35km/h ebike is safer as there is less speed differential and less driver frustration. I think I am the most qualified person to make that judgment because I am the only person here who has experienced both these things.

Definitely. I feel way safer riding ... city and country... at a decent speed on my bike. At slower bike speeds, car drivers have less time to make decisions and are more impatient.

[Comedian]

I am surprised anyone on any bike feels safer or less safe around cars by increasing or de-creasing their speed by 5 - 7 klm/h

Try riding a legal 25k e-bike. You'll understand!

They are big and heavy and upright. As soon as the motor cuts out it's a real struggle to get them to move. That's why you'll see most legal e-bikes end up being ridden with the absolute minimum effort.. bang on 25k. There is no point pushing past that because you're unlikely to really go any faster despite a massive increase in effort required. It's counter intuitive but that's how it pans out.

Ironically when our e-bike was de-restricted I found you got a better workout (it's relative) because at least you had the incentive that to get more out of the motor you had to put more in.

[RobertL]

32km/h for me is a Z2 endurance pace on the flat. I did 120km in 4 hours a couple of weekends ago. That's a 30km/h average, so I spent a lot of time cruising at around 32-33km/h.

If e-bikes had a 32km/h limit, my wife could accompany me on a ride like this. She is a very "recreational" cyclist and cannot do that pace. An e-bike limited to 25km/h would be no help to her.

At the moment, if we want to ride together, I am dawdling and she is going flat out. It's not a lot of fun for either of us.

(The other solution is to get he an e-bike, and then only go for hilly rides...)

[Comedian]

32km/h for me is a Z2 endurance pace on the flat. I did 120km in 4 hours a couple of weekends ago. That's a 30km/h average, so I spent a lot of time cruising at around 32-33km/h.

If e-bikes had a 32km/h limit, my wife could accompany me on a ride like this. She is a very "recreational" cyclist and cannot do that pace. An e-bike limited to 25km/h would be no help to her.

At the moment, if we want to ride together, I am dawdling and she is going flat out. It's not a lot of fun for either of us.

(The other solution is to get he an e-bike, and then only go for hilly rides...)

For what it's worth, I wore a HR strap and did some analysis a while back. With our legal e-bike - I get the same workout riding either. Ie I get virtually no exercise on the e-bike, and if I ride the roadie so slow as to be the same speed, I get no exercise on it either.

[henno]

For what it's worth, I wore a HR strap and did some analysis a while back. With our legal e-bike - I get the same workout riding either. Ie I get virtually no exercise on the e-bike, and if I ride the roadie so slow as to be the same speed, I get no exercise on it either.

No fitness at 24.99kph? Find a bigger hill

[Janice]

I think I am the most qualified person to make that judgment because I am the only person here who has experienced both these things.

While you mention that you are not sure about the popularity of ebikes in Australia in 2015, it is a bold claim that you are the only one here who has ridden both a faster ebike (35kmh) and regular bike (and thus are the most qualified person to make a judgement).

You could, for example, ask..... me.

I ride ebikes for testing (though not for my personal commuting or sports cycling) and have ridden a lot of brands / types of motors and styles if ebikes. Also visited factories where they build ebike motors and ebikes. I have taken part in dealer/service workshops for ebikes and published a lot of ebike content... the ebike buyers guide we published was in 2013.

But I am a sample size of one... and I am sure that others here can also contribute with experience and expertise. The broad selection of input makes this a far richer discussion.

Apologies. There seem to be a lot of people pro a 25km/h limit who have never experienced a 32km/h cut out.

[Janice]

I am surprised anyone on any bike feels safer or less safe around cars by increasing or de-creasing their speed by 5 - 7 klm/h

If you thing 7km/h is nothing, try going from 25km/h to 18km/h.

Ride an ebike at 32 and tell me if you notice any difference.

[AUbicycles]

[queequeg]

32km/h for me is a Z2 endurance pace on the flat. I did 120km in 4 hours a couple of weekends ago. That's a 30km/h average, so I spent a lot of time cruising at around 32-33km/h.

If e-bikes had a 32km/h limit, my wife could accompany me on a ride like this. She is a very "recreational" cyclist and cannot do that pace. An e-bike limited to 25km/h would be no help to her.

At the moment, if we want to ride together, I am dawdling and she is going flat out. It's not a lot of fun for either of us.

(The other solution is to get he an e-bike, and then only go for hilly rides...)

Similar to me on flat terrain. I did my Audax 606km ride last year at just over 30km/h moving average. It would have been higher were it not for 300km of head winds. But to equate that with an ebike 32km/h cut off is a bit misleading. On my commute to work on the bike, the range of power and speed is wide. A typical commute would see my top speed around 65km/h and my max power a smidge below 1000W, with lots of variations. For example, there is a 10km section of the trip on the motorway shoulder where I average around 47km/h, and have averaged in the mid-50’s in the past. That is offset by long sections of mostly uphill riding at less than 20km/h.
Along the pacific highway I mostly ride between 350and 40km/h (big gear, moderate cadence).

My biggest concern with higher speeds, as noted by others, is riders with little experience on the bike going out and exceeding their abilities because they have not built up natural fitness to sustain those speeds. Getting a motorbike licence requires you to attend a riders course on bike handling and has a graduated licence system restricting how powerful the bike can be, and although 32km/h is still a pretty low speed on the road, nearly all ebikes that I see are ridden on shared paths. I see very few on the road, except for quite inner city back streets, and the occasional fat bike commuter moving between the road and footpath to avoid red lights

[Thoglette]

Apologies. There seem to be a lot of people pro a 25km/h limit who have never experienced a 32km/h cut out.

Or a 50kph cut off, which is the nominal limit for scooters.

But this is not about how fast e-things go in the road. It is about appropriate speeds on shared paths and footpaths.

(Yes, in certain bush-hick states there is cycling infrastructure and one is allowed to ride on the footpath)

Trying to “fix” an infrastructure problem (or poor way finding) by adding “just a few more kph” is as oxymoronic as expecting to fix congestion with more roads.

Remember, anyone with a valid drivers license can ride a scooter. Then you can do 50kph.

[Nobody]

Remember, anyone with a valid drivers license can ride a scooter. Then you can do 50kph.

Not without a motorcycle licence in NSW, VIC, ACT or TAS. Not that anyone asked, but as a motorcycle rider, I don't believe that using any (petrol engine, motorcycle type) scooter with just a driver's licence is a good idea.
https://www.scootering.com.au/can-you-r ... r-license/

[outnabike]

I am surprised that a cyclist would imagine he will get more respect or acceptance from motorits by going from 25 to 30 klm.
I remember one noted cyclist on here a few years ago that reckoned he got more respect when he pedalled harder, under the illusion that his effort was gaining him respect.
Others mooted that a pair of rear side bags got the respect or extra passing distance. I have quite a few fines imposed on motorists due to all of the above being self-delusive considerations.

I average 20 kph over a 15 to 20 klm ride and it has not changed. This includes stoppages at any road ways etc. Now I am seeing “do nothing” over weight folks passing me like I am standing still. Safety shirted folks on the road on scooters etc. Many ripping along blind corners at full speed on bike paths. Just like the standard racing bikes.
I don’t care who gets electric anything but don’t come along with the "good for exercise" line.

All electricity does is get you further in a possibly quicker time more easily. And there is nothing wrong with that concept at all.

[Thoglette]

Not without a motorcycle licence in NSW, VIC, ACT or TAS.

Ah. I see.

Includes a mandatory SIX hour course in NSW.

And then three years on P plates.

Well that answers the question this thread poses.

[stevenaaus]

I am surprised that a cyclist would imagine he will get more respect or acceptance from motorits by going from 25 to 30 klm.

Yes, respect from some, but moreover, an overtaking motorist has more time to make a decision/slow down if you are going faster. Sorry, but it is quite simple.

[rkelsen]

an overtaking motorist has more time to make a decision/slow down if you are going faster.

¿Que?

It's harder for them to overtake you if you're going faster. They have to spend more time on the wrong side of the road or a part of the road they may not want to be on, at a speed which they may not want to be doing.

My experience suggests the angriest drivers seem to be the ones who pass me on country roads when I'm doing >50kph (which really only happens when I'm going downhill with a tailwind).

But this is not about how fast e-things go in the road. It is about appropriate speeds on shared paths and footpaths.

Excellent observation, and it's the point most seem to be missing.

If you want to go faster on two wheels, get a motorbike license. Or drop the e-assist and get fitter.

[AUbicycles]

That 30kmh average on the 600k audax ride was impressive.... must have had good batteries in those legs!

[queequeg]

That 30kmh average on the 600k audax ride was impressive.... must have had good batteries in those legs!

Fueled by traditional Audax food...bacon & egg rolls, meat pies and pastries (although pickings are slim in the country after 7pm, so stock the fridge in your hotel room with snacks for the overnight rest stop!)

[ColinOldnCranky]

25kph is an arbitrary setting. But so too is 110kph on the open road. And no-oneis goping to upp the speed limit on roads to 140kph with the reasoning that is all to often trotted out to increase limits for e-bikes. Indeed, while the "wanting" is in plentiful supply, actual reasoning beyond that is not.

Pelletons are adangerous place to be for those who are on different equipment and speeds, with different riding actions and reactions. Designing rules to support people who, for example, aren't both physically and skills-wise up to riding in a pelletton makes as much sense as letting me on the race track with Daniel Ricciardo just because I WANT to.

In some pursuits all we can do is WANT, not DO.

While some cyclists can maintain high speeds, those who can do so over the same extended distance as some of the better e-bikes are not that common on shared paths. And on the number of idiots doing inappropriate speeds, I'd venture that, for the small numbers of e-bikers, they are far more common than idiot peddlers. e-bikes are already fit for the purposes they are legally allowed to fulfill.

[zebee]

2

Pelletons are adangerous place to be for those who are on different equipment and speeds, with different riding actions and reactions. Designing rules to support people who, for example, aren't both physically and skills-wise up to riding in a pelletton makes as much sense as letting me on the race track with Daniel Ricciardo just because I WANT to.

Consider recumbents: fast on the flat, very fast downhill, slow on hills. THey don't mix well in pelotons really. I can't see ebikes with enough battery to keep up with faster guys on the flat will either.

I don't think an ebike is for someone to keep up with fast riders. I think it's for people who can't cycle much at all or who are doing transport and heavy loads. If you are out with someone who can't keep up with you then you have a choice: ride with them or don't. If it is a spouse and you aren't willing to tone it down, think carefully about what you do with them that's hard work for you and they have to slow for you.

Legislators aren't thinking about Joe Racer who is getting on and wants to keep up with the youngsters. They are thinking about the 15yo with no self control and no thought for others. They are thinking about the older novice with poor reaction times and who can't turn their head. Because there are going to be more of those than Joe Racers. And even if there were not, it is still a matter of dealing with the wide range of possible issues.

I'd rather a blanket speed limit and no power limit, plus requiring pedalling. Easier to enforce and it means my heavy rig gets up the hills more easily!

[Joeblake]

Consider recumbents: fast on the flat, very fast downhill, slow on hills.

I bought my first 'bent trike in the early '90s and fitted a 250 watts Heinzmann hub motor in roughly 2007, in about 2008 I fitted about 20 watts of solar panels up behind my head to recharge as I ride. I swap between the trike(s) and a non-e MTB and there's something I've noticed - even before the "give a cyclist a metre" rule came into being, cars would give the trike far more room when overtaking, even to the extent of crossing double lines to do so. I've not been able to pin any single factor down, but my thoughts are (a) the trike is a seemingly much wider shape on the road (in actual fact it's not as wide as my arms when I ride the MTB bent over the bars and elbows splayed) (b) I have a whippy brightly coloured flag over my head (c) my trike appears to be much more solid than my MTB (although it has a middling sized white plastic box on the rear carry rack) so maybe car drivers think if they hit the back of the trike it may damage the front of their car more than the MTB.

The Heinzmann motor is limited to 193 rpm, so the speed/ climbing ability is governed by the size of the wheel. One trike has a 26" rear wheel and can get up to about 25 km/h without pedalling, but won't climb anything more than a slight gradient unassisted, whereas my second trike with the same size motor and same limiting but a 16" wheel, will max out at about 17-18 km/h but will ascend a fairly steep climb (Welshpool Road) unassisted at about 4 km/h. But in hot weather thermal protection can cut the motor out until it cools. However if I coast down Welshpool road I can reach 70+ km/h and on the following flat either trike can be kept at over 35 km/h by pedal power alone. Taking off from the lights with the 16" I use the motor to get to about 15-16 km/h then I can pedal up to about 25 km/h on the flat, so the motor doesn't give me much speed, just gets me away from the lights quicker, and up hills easier.