Why ebikes are good / bad

[RonK]

Also tried a Orbea Gain M20 out in the carpark for fit and feel and have bitten the bullet and committed to one for delivery next week in time for my 80th b'day. A bit expensive but hey you can't take it with you.
Hope it works out in allowing me to continue to ride with my mates for a few years yet.

Fantastic. And a very happy birthday to you.

[grt046]

Fantastic. And a very happy birthday to you.

Thanks RonK

[Janice]

I am getting a bit long in the tooth and am starting to struggle particularly on the hills when riding with my mates all of whom are 10 or more years younger.
I decided to check out the E Road bike scene and had the opportunity for a short test ride of the entry level Specialized Turbo Creo E5 over a 5.5km hilly course (65m up) Managed an average of 27 kph with 80% of the ride over 25 with no assistance. The same route with my Defy Adv resulted in a 20.5 average with similar heartbeat range on both.
Also tried a Orbea Gain M20 out in the carpark for fit and feel and have bitten the bullet and committed to one for delivery next week in time for my 80th b'day. A bit expensive but hey you can't take it with you.
Hope it works out in allowing me to continue to ride with my mates for a few years yet.

Nice bike. Congratulations.

[celeste boy]

My riding buddy saw the light at 89.
Goes out now even on non-group ride days.

[Mububban]

Those Orbea Gains are lovely looking things. Enjoy!

[grt046]

Those Orbea Gains are lovely looking things. Enjoy!

Thanks Mububban,
Five rides in and I am sure I have made the right decision. What a blast

[Janice]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/set ... l#comments

Speed and power caps on electric bikes should be lifted to increase their takeup as a viable transport solution, reduce road traffic and boost cargo delivery efficiency.

A NSW Productivity Commission paper has called for a national review of the laws relating to electric bicycles. It suggests that removing modest speed caps would improve road safety, given many of the bikes are being illegally and dangerously converted without regulation.

[Comedian]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/set ... l#comments

Speed and power caps on electric bikes should be lifted to increase their takeup as a viable transport solution, reduce road traffic and boost cargo delivery efficiency.

A NSW Productivity Commission paper has called for a national review of the laws relating to electric bicycles. It suggests that removing modest speed caps would improve road safety, given many of the bikes are being illegally and dangerously converted without regulation.

Thanks for sharing. It's interesting - if enough people break the law then it's easier to change the law than to address the issues.

I'm pretty darn sure this is what the whole scooter industry is hoping for.

[Comedian]

And let's be clear.. Australian power and speed standards aren't modest by international standards. They are the same as all of Europe which is where the standards were adopted from.

The issue as I see it is the difference in the cycling environment. We don't have direct off road routes, and most people have to travel further to make the trip by bike. They also often have to use roads with cars because paths don't connect.

So our solution is to try and make the bikes faster and more car like rather than address the cycling environment.

“In all Australian jurisdictions, e-bikes are subject to speed and power limits which are modest by international standards,” NSW Productivity Commissioner Peter Achterstraat said.

We have a PMD "explosion" in Brisbane now and we're seeing big rises in injuries. Yes these devices are a great solution for our cities but it has to be done carefully and safely.

[trailgumby]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/set ... l#comments

Speed and power caps on electric bikes should be lifted to increase their takeup as a viable transport solution, reduce road traffic and boost cargo delivery efficiency.

A NSW Productivity Commission paper has called for a national review of the laws relating to electric bicycles. It suggests that removing modest speed caps would improve road safety, given many of the bikes are being illegally and dangerously converted without regulation.

Thanks for sharing. It's interesting - if enough people break the law then it's easier to change the law than to address the issues.

I'm pretty darn sure this is what the whole scooter industry is hoping for.

From one perspective, it demonstrates evidence of demand.

We are in the same boat with unsanctioned mountain bike trails in Sydney's northern beaches. We have been told by consultants employed by NPWS that unsanctioned trails are required and used as evidence of demand. NPWS desperately wants to increase visitation, and mountain bikers are a key visitor group, but they have no funds for trail building. So consequently, they turn a blind eye and have scaled back investigation and enforcement, with a view to later auditing and sanctioning the trails that are built.

The downside is that a lot of trails get built in EEC zones and other areas where they should not be, due to lack of communication. But if we don't build and ride these unsanctioned trails, there is no evidence of demand. Caught between a rock and a hard place.

Same with these PMDs I guess.

[Comedian]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/set ... l#comments

Speed and power caps on electric bikes should be lifted to increase their takeup as a viable transport solution, reduce road traffic and boost cargo delivery efficiency.

A NSW Productivity Commission paper has called for a national review of the laws relating to electric bicycles. It suggests that removing modest speed caps would improve road safety, given many of the bikes are being illegally and dangerously converted without regulation.

Thanks for sharing. It's interesting - if enough people break the law then it's easier to change the law than to address the issues.

I'm pretty darn sure this is what the whole scooter industry is hoping for.

From one perspective, it demonstrates evidence of demand.

We are in the same boat with unsanctioned mountain bike trails in Sydney's northern beaches. We have been told by consultants employed by NPWS that unsanctioned trails are required and used as evidence of demand. NPWS desperately wants to increase visitation, and mountain bikers are a key visitor group, but they have no funds for trail building. So consequently, they turn a blind eye and have scaled back investigation and enforcement, with a view to later auditing and sanctioning the trails that are built.

The downside is that a lot of trails get built in EEC zones and other areas where they should not be, due to lack of communication. But if we don't build and ride these unsanctioned trails, there is no evidence of demand. Caught between a rock and a hard place.

Same with these PMDs I guess.

Not really. Evidence of trail demand is a thing.

PMD's capable of 60, 80, and even 100kph is not something that I think is comparable. One is demand issue - the other a significant safety issue.

Most PMD's in QLD are legal to own, but illegal to use. The shops know they are selling products that are illegal to use. The people buying them also know they are illegal to use.

I went to a "roundtable" last week. I do know the scooter advocates were seeking to get the speed limit for PMD's raised to 40 before the meeting. Strangely though.. it might have been the talk by the Jameson Trauma institute.. where on ER doctor said that just his ER at one hospital were a number of admissions a day due to PMD crashes. And not trivial ones either. I dunno .. but the scooter advocates didn't seem to mention it.. I should note that many of these crashes were due to commercial PMD, but we've had a number of private PMD's involved in deaths in the last few months.

I mean have a listen to the Jameson guy talk. 800 admissions in 15 months across three hospitals in BNE. Are illegal trails causing anything like this?

I can understand why people in other states can't understand what we're seeing up here. Due to law changes and a lack of enforcement by QPS QLD really is the scooter capital of Australia.

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/brisbane/p ... s/13618866

[Thoglette]

I went to a "roundtable" last week. I do know the scooter advocates were seeking to get the speed limit for PMD's raised to 40 before the meeting.

Which I’ve said before is a really strange speed: not fast enough to be travelling with traffic (like a WA R-N moped), but too fast to be safe on shared paths or if you need to dismount in a hurry (eg in the presence of “honky nuts” or similar)

In WA

[Comedian]

I went to a "roundtable" last week. I do know the scooter advocates were seeking to get the speed limit for PMD's raised to 40 before the meeting.

Which I’ve said before is a really strange speed: not fast enough to be travelling with traffic (like a WA R-N moped), but too fast to be safe on shared paths or if you need to dismount in a hurry (eg in the presence of “honky nuts” or similar)

In WA

I'm not sure how much strategy happens with scooter advocates. I'm sure they are just like bike people, with jobs and lives and are just trying to make things better for their chosen mode. It's a new thing too.. it's unlikely they are very organised yet.

However I'm sure that long term it was intended to be a point that they could advance from.. Ie increase from there hopefully.

Part of me says 25 on a big open sparsely populated bike way must seem pretty slow. At the moment PMD are not allowed on roads near cars so I don't think that's much of an issue.. but if they are allowed on proper roads than it will be. I think no matter what speed you choose people will want more. It's just human nature. And if you take it away from a device limit and start putting actual speed limits on certain areas then it's just going to be a whole bag of hurt.

Personally I think while ever people are buying these vehicles that are capable of much higher speeds then it's just always going to be a problem. I mean walk into a shop in the valley and come out with a scooter capable of 100kph. I could do that this morning. We don't have the legislative framework or the cycle network to accomodate devices like these.

I think it's just easier to just ban the sale and use of them and the sooner the better. Unfortunately I believe that's a fed thing..

[Thoglette]

Unfortunately I believe that's a fed thing..

Import is a fed thing. As is twisting the arms of the states (see MHLs).
But roadway and pathway use is a state (and council) thing, generally.

[Comedian]

Unfortunately I believe that's a fed thing..

Import is a fed thing. As is twisting the arms of the states (see MHLs).
But roadway and pathway use is a state (and council) thing, generally.

It would seem that getting the feds to do anything is all but impossible with the current mob unless it's something that's important to them. Can't see PMD's getting on the list.

[RonK]

I mean have a listen to the Jameson guy talk. 800 admissions in 15 months across three hospitals in BNE.

A red herring I think. Numbers intended to shock, but lacking in balance. Where are the Jameson stats on bicycle-related admissions?

No doubt it would be inconvenient to compare. The most recent statistics I have been able to locate reporting on bicycle related injuries was published by the predecessor to the Jameson group - the Queensland Injury Surveillance Unit in 2005 and covers the injury statistics for the period from mid-1998 to 2004. It makes sobering reading:

"There are approx 6000 ED presentations and almost 10 deaths each year from bicycle related injury in Queensland."

Quite likely the current injury rate is even higher. Changes the perspective relative to scooter injuries I think.

And of course, Australian cyclists have lobby groups like Jameson to thank for MHL - something that hardly any other country in the world deems necessary.

https://metronorth.health.qld.gov.au/qi ... tin-86.pdf

[Comedian]

I mean have a listen to the Jameson guy talk. 800 admissions in 15 months across three hospitals in BNE.

A red herring I think. Numbers intended to shock, but lacking in balance. Where are the Jameson stats on bicycle-related admissions?

No doubt it would be inconvenient to compare. The most recent statistics I have been able to locate reporting on bicycle related injuries was published by the predecessor to the Jameson group - the Queensland Injury Surveillance Unit in 2005 and covers the injury statistics for the period from mid-1998 to 2004. It makes sobering reading:

"There are approx 6000 ED presentations and almost 10 deaths each year from bicycle related injury in Queensland."

Quite likely the current injury rate is even higher. Changes the perspective relative to scooter injuries I think.

And of course, Australian cyclists have lobby groups like Jameson to thank for MHL - something that hardly any other country in the world deems necessary.

https://metronorth.health.qld.gov.au/qi ... tin-86.pdf

Well.. scooters have only really been legal for a couple of years. While their numbers are increasing rapidly they are still only a fraction of bicycle usage. And those figures were only three hospitals in Brisbane. Personally I wouldn't be calling that one yet. Perhaps this is worth a watch too which is a full talk by the Jameson people. I would also be questioning - why are these guys ringing the bell? I got the impression that they were very concerned about this new class on injury. They seem to think they are dangerous.



I agree there needs to be much much more data and research on PMD's. At the moment there is a little bit on hire scooters and virtually none on private scooters. When someone says "one less car" I would love to see that backed up. I would love to know what modes PMD users are coming from, and how much actual utility scooting there is etc etc.

[Thoglette]

"There are approx 6000 ED presentations and almost 10 deaths each year from bicycle related injury in Queensland."

And that’ll be everything from Downhill MTB pro-am events to license-less drunks tripping over their feet to people run over by SMIDSY/IDGAF drivers.

They are meaningless numbers.

Heck more than twice that number die at work in QLD (2017 QLD worksafe notified fatalities)

Should you not go to work based on that number?

[trailgumby]

I mean have a listen to the Jameson guy talk. 800 admissions in 15 months across three hospitals in BNE.

A red herring I think. Numbers intended to shock, but lacking in balance. Where are the Jameson stats on bicycle-related admissions?

No doubt it would be inconvenient to compare. The most recent statistics I have been able to locate reporting on bicycle related injuries was published by the predecessor to the Jameson group - the Queensland Injury Surveillance Unit in 2005 and covers the injury statistics for the period from mid-1998 to 2004. It makes sobering reading:

"There are approx 6000 ED presentations and almost 10 deaths each year from bicycle related injury in Queensland."

Quite likely the current injury rate is even higher. Changes the perspective relative to scooter injuries I think.

And of course, Australian cyclists have lobby groups like Jameson to thank for MHL - something that hardly any other country in the world deems necessary.

https://metronorth.health.qld.gov.au/qi ... tin-86.pdf

Agreed, context is everything. And to provide further context, the rates should be provided on a per-exposure-hour basis, and compared to bicycles and motor vehicles, single versus multi-vehicle, and at-fault or not. Some root cause analysis (such as path surface conditions) would help direct mitigation.

"800 admissions in 15 months" is, unfortunately, meaningless. It provides no useful basis for decision-making.

[Janice]

And let's be clear.. Australian power and speed standards aren't modest by international standards. They are the same as all of Europe which is where the standards were adopted from.

The issue as I see it is the difference in the cycling environment. We don't have direct off road routes, and most people have to travel further to make the trip by bike. They also often have to use roads with cars because paths don't connect.

So our solution is to try and make the bikes faster and more car like rather than address the cycling environment.

“In all Australian jurisdictions, e-bikes are subject to speed and power limits which are modest by international standards,” NSW Productivity Commissioner Peter Achterstraat said.

We have a PMD "explosion" in Brisbane now and we're seeing big rises in injuries. Yes these devices are a great solution for our cities but it has to be done carefully and safely.

In Canada, the limit is 32km/h. In USA, it ranges between 32 and 45km/h. Why choose the European standard over the North American standard? Surely Sydney is more Los Angeles than Copenhagen.

Why is 25km/h the magic number? My guess is that is the speed an average person can ride. That is the wrong question. It should be what speed can we allow an unlicensed rider. 45 is too fast for someone who hasn't ridden since school. 32 seems to be more reasonable.

I don't know what you mean by off road routes. Do you mean bike paths?

I know that I am in the minority, but I have no problem with rego and licence for ebikes.

Instead of building bike paths I would lower the limit to 40km/h for everyone and I would allow anyone to ride on the footpath at 10km/h.

[Gordonhooker]

And let's be clear.. Australian power and speed standards aren't modest by international standards. They are the same as all of Europe which is where the standards were adopted from.

The issue as I see it is the difference in the cycling environment. We don't have direct off road routes, and most people have to travel further to make the trip by bike. They also often have to use roads with cars because paths don't connect.

So our solution is to try and make the bikes faster and more car like rather than address the cycling environment.

“In all Australian jurisdictions, e-bikes are subject to speed and power limits which are modest by international standards,” NSW Productivity Commissioner Peter Achterstraat said.

We have a PMD "explosion" in Brisbane now and we're seeing big rises in injuries. Yes these devices are a great solution for our cities but it has to be done carefully and safely.

In Canada, the limit is 32km/h. In USA, it ranges between 32 and 45km/h. Why choose the European standard over the North American standard? Surely Sydney is more Los Angeles than Copenhagen.

Why is 25km/h the magic number? My guess is that is the speed an average person can ride. That is the wrong question. It should be what speed can we allow an unlicensed rider. 45 is too fast for someone who hasn't ridden since school. 32 seems to be more reasonable.

I don't know what you mean by off road routes. Do you mean bike paths?

I know that I am in the minority, but I have no problem with rego and licence for ebikes.

Instead of building bike paths I would lower the limit to 40km/h for everyone and I would allow anyone to ride on the footpath at 10km/h.

---

I am quite happy with the 25km/h limit and I don't know why anyone would want to go much faster on a bike anyway, I ride to enjoy myself and look at the world at a slower pace. Definitely would be anti registration requirements for ebikes, one of the reasons I sold my Harley was because I am retiring next year and don't want to have multiple vehicle rego's hanging over my head.

They are my thoughts on the subject for what it is worth...

[Gordonhooker]

Hi All,

There seems to be quite a lot of posts regarding scooter's in this thread - I was hoping for just ebike content as that is what I am interested in.
Is there another area that is just about ebikes here?

[trailgumby]

Hi All,

There seems to be quite a lot of posts regarding scooter's in this thread - I was hoping for just ebike content as that is what I am interested in.
Is there another area that is just about ebikes here?

'
Thread drift is a fact of life on the internets. Why? You're interacting with people.

[skyblot]

I am quite happy with the 25km/h limit and I don't know why anyone would want to go much faster on a bike anyway, ...

That would be because they don't want an e-assist bicycle, but instead really want an e-motorbike they can ride safely away from traffic, on bike paths/shared paths etc.

[feral grasshopper]

I am quite happy with the 25km/h limit and I don't know why anyone would want to go much faster on a bike anyway, ...

That would be because they don't want an e-assist bicycle, but instead really want an e-motorbike they can ride safely away from traffic, on bike paths/shared paths etc.

Reality is that there are many different types of riders, many different purposes and what suits one might not suit another. It is not always easy to imagine another’s experience but that does not mean that that experience is not valid. I’d like to be able to go a little faster, but no, I don’t secretly want a motor bike. Been there, done that! And if I wanted a motor bike, I’d get one!

What I don’t want to do is prescribe or proscribe for anyone else on the basis of my own desires!