Doping in C-grade ?

[sogood]

... what I don't get is - who cares if someone in C Grade cheats in such manner? On Tuesday or Saturday at Heffron... what does it actually matter to anyone?

Some people in society get their kick by just being a smart alec. They get their kick by knowing they can be there with you without doing all the hard work others have done. Most don't understand it and won't do it but unfortunately some will.

[JustJames]

I remember a weekend news article written by/dealing with the subject of a weekend B/C Grade road racer who doped for a season, as an experiment. A fascinating read on his experience, and the outcomes/fallout from it when he "came clean".

An interesting read - someone here may have or know of a link to it.

This one?

http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2009/11/d ... nary-tale/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If that isn't the article you were thinking of, it's well worth taking the time to read anyway. Gives a good insight to what it's like to ride on the juice.

[Cycledelica]

There are hundreds of ways to cheat. From dodgy laps out, improper equipment, dodgy teammates, short cuts on the course, etc to "adjusting one's line" in the sprint. You even occasionally see the "brake for nothing" to discourage close drafting. In lower grades, in my opinion, the cheating that really matters is riding in a manner dangerous to other competitors.

I did the highland fling (mtb race) a couple of years ago and there is one section where the track loops back and comes very close to an earlier section. Jumping across would have cut out a good 5km of a really technical rocky section, and indeed a bunch of guys did so. I can't see the point in doing this because unless you are at the top and are there to win, then you're basically just lying to yourself. I used to race mtb because it was fun and I like the thrill of the chase. I haven't done any road racing but that is why I'm keen to do some. Of course I would like to win a race, but I don't actually care if I don't because I know I'm not a pro level rider and so there will always be faster guys out there. Club level racing should be about enjoyment and the social aspect of cycling whilst pushing yourself to your own personal limits.

[Howzat]

Club level racing should be about enjoyment and the social aspect of cycling whilst pushing yourself to your own personal limits.

+1 to this.

There may be lots of ways to cheat, some of them clever, and some of them stupid, but one thing remains true - cheaters suck.

[eeksll]

We may be slightly at cross purposes - I accept that people want to win, and acknowledge the possibility of PEDs in lower grades; what I don't get is - who cares if someone in C Grade cheats in such manner? On Tuesday or Saturday at Heffron... what does it actually matter to anyone?

I am not exactly clear what direction your taking this at, but where I think your coming from is why do other people care some cheat in C grade.

Going on that line of thinking and the original article, the assumption would be to get to the pros one would go through the amateur ranks first and if the culture is to dope already in the lower grades there is not much hope for pro-cycling.

They get their kick by knowing they can be there with you without doing all the hard work others have done.

bang for buck right? how many people come searching on these forums asking for the best value bike ...

[queequeg]

I do 250-300km per week, and I don't race. Can someone tell me why I keep getting asked if I race every time I go out for a solo ride (which is about 99% of my cycling)?
Personally I don't see the attraction. I prefer to just go and climb hills and do fast descents on my own, at my own pace, at a time of my choosing.

[sogood]

I do 250-300km per week, and I don't race. Can someone tell me why I keep getting asked if I race every time I go out for a solo ride (which is about 99% of my cycling)?
Personally I don't see the attraction. I prefer to just go and climb hills and do fast descents on my own, at my own pace, at a time of my choosing.

Are trying to say that you don't dope at a time when every roadie is under suspicion?

[Christine Tham]

Christine, you are just emphasising your ignorance in the matter.

It's not nice for you to escalate this into a personal attack on my credibility. I am not the one making statements that require substantiation, and therefore my knowledge, or lack of, is irrelevant.

You are still evading answering my original question, which is what substantiation do you actually have that C grade (at Heffron, or anywhere else for that matter) is "beyond" the capability of a "weekend warrior"?

As I mentioned before a weekend warrior is anyone who is holding a fulltime job and therefore their cycling opportunities during weekdays are limited. As far as I know, many participants in club races are people like that.

As for whether Heffron C grade is "different" from other club C grade events, as you have claimed - again you have provided absolutely no substantiation for this.

As far as I am concerned with your claim - either there is a difference or there isn't. If there is, then it is either significant (ie. Heffron C grade is more akin to say another club's B grade) or it isn't.

If the difference is significant - I would say there is an issue with the race - it is misgraded compared to other races. This is not about elitism or my "ignorance" - this is about consistency. If club races are significantly inconsistent then it does point to "Australia having a poor grading system" as toolonglegs claimed - and this is bad for cycling as a sport. You of all people should be trying to fix it rather than implicitly or explicitly condoning it. If neither yourself nor the race organiser sees this as a "problem", then I would suggest that could be part of the "problem."

If the difference is insignificant (which is what I suspect) - then your comments about Heffron C grade being "beyond" a weekend warrior are just puffery.

Take your pick - which do you think it is, and please provide justification either way.

[Christine Tham]

No it doesn't. Tuesday night Heffron racing is held in very high regard. What you seem to be missing here is that the level across all grades at Tue night Heffron is higher. A grade is harder because a high quality field turns up, so some riders who might normally ride club A grade will go to B grade and so on. It's not just C grade that's harder. I wouldn't call this burgling either as it's just what riders have to do to stay competitive and avoid being dropped every week. Also the nature of a handicap generally makes it a harder race than a scratch race, especially for the riders who aren't normally at the pointy end.

If what you are saying is true you are actually substantiating the issue that toolonglegs raised, which is that "Australia has a very poor grading system"

The purpose of grading is to achieve consistency in the sport, so you have a "standard" for measuring a rider's ability.

Having some races that are "mislabelled" with respect to their target grading is bad for the sport. This is not an issue that the participants or the organisers themselves recognise - because a race that is regarded as "tough" may be held in "high regard" as you say.

But that is not good in the long run for cycling as a sport.

My point was that Alex was claiming Heffron grade C is "beyond" the ability of a "weekend warrior" - I don't believe that one bit and would like him to justify his position.

From what I know of Heffron C grade, yes it's a bit intense but it's not an entire grade tougher. Yes, if a rider is normally borderline at another C grade race, they may well get dropped and one has to have nerves of steel to survive the corners in the last lap. But that's why people love racing - every course and race is different. But I don't think there are any justificatin for Alex's claims - if there are, he should demonstrate them, that is what I am holding him to task for.

[Christine Tham]

I do 250-300km per week, and I don't race. Can someone tell me why I keep getting asked if I race every time I go out for a solo ride (which is about 99% of my cycling)?
Personally I don't see the attraction. I prefer to just go and climb hills and do fast descents on my own, at my own pace, at a time of my choosing.

Are trying to say that you don't dope at a time when every roadie is under suspicion?

I rode with queequeg once. I definitely saw him ingest what looked like Spanish beef after the ride, and I thought him needing to go to the toilet halfway through the ride very VERY suspicious

[AndrewBurns]

If what you are saying is true you are actually substantiating the issue that toolonglegs raised, which is that "Australia has a very poor grading system"

The purpose of grading is to achieve consistency in the sport, so you have a "standard" for measuring a rider's ability.

Having some races that are "mislabelled" with respect to their target grading is bad for the sport. This is not an issue that the participants or the organisers themselves recognise - because a race that is regarded as "tough" may be held in "high regard" as you say.

But that is not good in the long run for cycling as a sport.

My point was that Alex was claiming Heffron grade C is "beyond" the ability of a "weekend warrior" - I don't believe that one bit and would like him to justify his position.

From what I know of Heffron C grade, yes it's a bit intense but it's not an entire grade tougher. Yes, if a rider is normally borderline at another C grade race, they may well get dropped and one has to have nerves of steel to survive the corners in the last lap. But that's why people love racing - every course and race is different. But I don't think there are any justificatin for Alex's claims - if there are, he should demonstrate them, that is what I am holding him to task for.

Christine, not wishing to get involved in this argument at all but I'd consider myself a weekend warrior with some occasional commuting thrown in but I never actually train towards anything or race consistently.

My first race at Heffron on a Saturday was my first ever race so I went into D-grade but won it easily. Then I went to C-grade and I've raced there maybe 10 times on Saturday and my best result would be second but I'm usually around 5th or so in the sprint, I can last to the finish comfortably but not win. My first race on a Tuesday night I got dropped about 4 or 5 laps from the finish, my best result there was between 8 and 10th place. Three of the 4 races I've ridden there C-grade won, that is we stayed ahead of A and B grade and that's what makes the difference. In a Saturday C-grade race you might get lapped by A and B 2 times over the race and it doesn't matter because you're riding at your own comfortable pace but on a Tuesday race if you don't stay ahead of them you don't win so C has to push nearly as high of a pace as A and the A squad is full of NRS teams who almost ride for a living. I don't know how the race could be run any differently, it wouldn't be safe to have more people on the track, it could be carnage if a big group of extremely fast riders has to pass a D-grade bunch on that track. I suppose you could label the bunches 'open, A and B' instead of 'A, B and C' but what would the point be?

[rogan]

We may be slightly at cross purposes - I accept that people want to win, and acknowledge the possibility of PEDs in lower grades; what I don't get is - who cares if someone in C Grade cheats in such manner? On Tuesday or Saturday at Heffron... what does it actually matter to anyone?

I am not exactly clear what direction your taking this at, but where I think your coming from is why do other people care some cheat in C grade.

Going on that line of thinking and the original article, the assumption would be to get to the pros one would go through the amateur ranks first and if the culture is to dope already in the lower grades there is not much hope for pro-cycling.

The line I am taking is clearly stated in my post. C Grade racing is a world away from pro racing. I don't condone cheating, not at all. But there is a cost and burden associated with testing. The target for testing of PEDs should be professional and high calibre amateur events (such as the National Road Series). It is doping at the higher levels of the sport, where the riders are very even and competitive, which actually makes an important difference. The possibility of such cheating in lower grades is not of itself an argument for in-competition testing of lower grades.

C Grade riders are not future pros. If someone in C Grade was doping and gaining a benefit, they would soon find themselves in B Grade. And as I said in my first post, if you have to dope to succeed in C Grade you will never amount to very much anyway.

[greyhoundtom]

Heffron is not the only venue where there is a marked difference between the pace needed to win a specific grade on different days of the week.

Going by my own experience while riding with Southern Masters is that anyone in C grade that is in the top three finishers at Casey Fields on a Sunday would struggle to finish in the top ten on a Thursday night at Sandown Park in the same grade.

More riders coming over from various clubs, higher intensity, and a more competitive attitude to the events at Sandown Park on Thursday nights.

Nothing to do with poor grading...........while I could sit in with the pack in the lowly grade that I raced in at Casey, I would invariable be dropped or just hang on at the tail at Sandown in the same grade, and I have no doubt that the same would have occurred if both days racing had been held at the same venue.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Christine, you are just emphasising your ignorance in the matter.

It's not nice for you to escalate this into a personal attack on my credibility.

I'm simply pointing out the logical fallacy you present: argumentum ad ignorantiam

Christine, the races on Tuesdays are far harder than on Saturdays. They always have been. Why do you find it so hard to accept that reality?

The race organisers could call the grades anything they like, after a letter, a number, a bike racer, a famous col. It wouldn't matter a toss. The race is what it is.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

My point was that Alex was claiming Heffron grade C is "beyond" the ability of a "weekend warrior" - I don't believe that one bit and would like him to justify his position.

A weekend warrior to me is someone that goes out on their bike on the weekend for exercise, not rides their bike all week for the purpose of training.

Clearly there will be a few individuals at one end of the genetically blessed distribution curve who would be able to compete on very little training, but the majority of people at this level would not be able to compete at Tuesday night C grade level.

Keep in mind that fitness is only one element of being able to race. Many weekend warriors would also lack the skills and tactical nouse to race competitively at that level.

[Chris249]

I'm no expert about racing, but to show how murky the issue is, even inside one club at Heffron there are two slightly different grading structures. It happens because although RBCC normally races A-D grades on Saturdays, for the Club Champs (which can also take place on Saturdays at Heffron) there are just three grades and grading is heavily influenced by times in the first two rounds, which are time trials. So B, which ends up with 50% of the entire pack, can include some normal Saturday A graders racing alongside some normal Saturday C graders.

Since grading is not consistent even across the same club at the same place, and (as Andrew pointed out) different tactical and physical strengths count in a handicap race compared to a normal Saturday race (and arguably different strengths also count in a CC race) then surely it's no big deal if the grading appears to be inconsistent.

BTW watching the performance of people who race B grade at RBCC on Saturdays does tend to indicate that the standard on Tuesdays is higher.

[The_Eggman]

Can I suggest everyone stops using the term Weekend Warrior? It's proving a fairly unhelpful, derogatory and ill defined term

[ZepinAtor]

As I mentioned before a weekend warrior is anyone who is holding a fulltime job and therefore their cycling opportunities during weekdays are limited. As far as I know, many participants in club races are people like that.

As far as I know 95% of cyclists at club level hold a full time job. Including the A grade animals who sit on 47km/hr on our local crit track.

Personally I hold a full time job & average 50hrs/week. I train under a coach using power data through the WKO Training Peaks program. All of my coaches athletes are in the same boat including himself (coaching is a part time gig for him). We are definitely "NOT" weekend warriors. We are semi serious amateur athletes who podium at local races. My Wife & I compete mainly in MTB endurance events & only race the occasional C grade road event.

I think our definitions are somewhat on different pages

Can I suggest everyone stops using the term Weekend Warrior? It's proving a fairly unhelpful, derogatory and ill defined term

+1 totally agree with you there Eggman.

[Ross]

My point was that Alex was claiming Heffron grade C is "beyond" the ability of a "weekend warrior" - I don't believe that one bit and would like him to justify his position.

A weekend warrior to me is someone that goes out on their bike on the weekend for exercise, not rides their bike all week for the purpose of training.

That's my understanding of a weekend warrior too, Alex.

[simonn]

My point was that Alex was claiming Heffron grade C is "beyond" the ability of a "weekend warrior" - I don't believe that one bit and would like him to justify his position.

A weekend warrior to me is someone that goes out on their bike on the weekend for exercise, not rides their bike all week for the purpose of training.

That's my understanding of a weekend warrior too, Alex.

I think the difference is really that a weekend warrior will, in general, organize their <activity> around their life rather than their life, as far as is possible, around their <activity>.

Proudly defining myself as a weekend warrior despite most of my ~250km/week riding being done during the week (commuting).

[warthog1]

I always thought a weekend warrior was an army reservist
I ride to work for training and race when I can for fun, when I stop enjoying it I stop racing, if the people around me are too serious and race for sheep stations I CBF.

[skull]

I always thought a weekend warrior was an army reservist

NAH, because we work Tuesday nights as well.


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[scotto]

....... If someone in C Grade was doping and gaining a benefit, they would soon find themselves in B Grade

... then a grade...

Can't believe that it took 7 pages for the bleeding obvious....[THUMBS UP SIGN]

[twizzle]

Can I suggest everyone stops using the term Weekend Warrior? It's proving a fairly unhelpful, derogatory and ill defined term

But it's so much nicer than "Arrogant, lattè sipping road hogs".

And Christine... there is no simple way to standardise gradings. Every rider has differing performance, a good sprinter on a flat short course will have a higher grade than on a hilly long course. A good TT rider will have a lower crit grade than TT grade. Where you race, when you race, affects everything. And you can't keep promoting people every time they have a win, because it depends on where and who they were racing against at the time. My club, at least, has separate gradings for crits and road because it was so unfair to promote people based on their performance in a speciality.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

My point was that Alex was claiming Heffron grade C is "beyond" the ability of a "weekend warrior" - I don't believe that one bit and would like him to justify his position.

A weekend warrior to me is someone that goes out on their bike on the weekend for exercise, not rides their bike all week for the purpose of training.

That's my understanding of a weekend warrior too, Alex.

And just to be clear:
i. I didn't introduce the term to the discussion
ii. I don't consider it to be derogatory
iii. I think WW's are great - they are doing something they enjoy and is good for them - more power to them
iv. I'm not even at the level of a WW myself, so unfit am I. It's been a crap year for the bike.