Training with Power Meter and Analysis

[petepetepete]

Hi Folks,

Apologies in advance if the below points have been discussed already. I did take the time to skim through previous threats related to Power Meters but couldn't quite find the answers to my questions yet.

A) I am a time-poor, recreational cyclists with a strong interest in improving overall performance. For a month now i have got a dual sided QuarQ power meter that came with the new bike. I have read both books the Power Meter Handbook and the Cyclist's training bible by Joe Friel and observed the data/numbers of my past rides. To be honest I still dont quite know how to effectively use my power meter.

B) I have been joining about 3 club rides/week consistently for about 1.5-2 years now but do not really see improvements in my fitness levels. The distance of these rides varies between 40KM (weekdays) to 80KM (weekends). Since I have the power meter i observed an Intensity Factor of above 1.0 for most of the rides as well as NP above FTP which i suspect is too high for a training ride. I always feel very exhausted after each ride and find myself "eating everything i can to survive" and function throughout the rest of the day.
I also have to pass a lot of water continuously after these rides and feel like i cannot keep up with my fluid intake.

C) I am 6'2" and weigh 91KG. I have been on a mission to shed about 5KG of body weight but just cannot seem to get there. I do no longer drink alcohol and eat self-cooked, unprocessed food. Whilst I am not a big fan of FAD diets, I have been trialing Intermittent Fasting but without significant results. I don't believe i am overeating.
I find that my whole body gets bloated after the rides. Maybe my cortisol (stress hormone) levels are elevated because of a hectic lifestyle or too hard rides?

Based on the above observations, I have a number of questions that I hope to find some answers for in this forum.

A1) Is there a good simple book / website out there which explains training with a power meter and potentially has some training program suggestions based on available time?

A2) Does anyone have a recommendation for Garmin Data field setups in conjunction with a Power Meter? I know a lot of people ride based on % of FTP, Zones, etc. What do you find useful?

B1) Are my training efforts to hard?

B2) Should I ride on my own and give club rides a miss in order to train more efficiently?

C1) What am I doing wrong?

C2) Does anyone have advice on how to healthy and sustainably shed weight?

Sorry for the long text. I hope i have provided enough info to answer some of my questions. If you are tempted, please feel free to only answer some questions. Any input is appreciated. Thank you for your help.

[nickobec]

A1 - The book that did it for me was Training and Racing with a Power Meter by Hunter Allen, Andrew R. Coggan and Stephen Mcgregor Currently in 3rd edition, 2nd edition is my bible, much easier to read the Friel (and I am a data freak).

If you want to ease in, I would start with Dylan Johnson on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIf1xv ... _VfLgj_dow

A2 - I ride/train/race with 3 second power and lap power (along with lap time and HR). That is all I need, I know my zones.

B - when did you last test your FTP? You should not be regularly riding above your FTP for an hour or more, otherwise your current FTP is to low. My method, because I can do it at least once a month without destroying myself or training schedule, ride 8 minutes flat out, recover 8 minutes, 8 minutes flat out. Your FTP is 90% of the average of the two 8 minute blocks.

B1 YES if the end result is your are feeling like that after every ride, once a week is fine, but you are probably not recovering enough between club rides.

B2 Set your goals, work out how to structure your training to get there, then work if can you do it with club rides, riding alone or a mix. Including dropping down a level/group with the group ride.

C1 Riding so hard you need to pig out after every ride

C2 If I knew I would be skinny and rich. After riding at 82 to 85kg for last 8 years, dropped 7kg in 2018, 2019 got sick, ate too much chocolate, drank too much beer and put the 7kg back on. Struggling to get back down again.

To lose weight, my advice would be not to ride so hard so often. Do one 3 hour or so endurance ride a week fasted. Ride at least three or four times a week, excluding recovery rides.

[Derny Driver]

Hi Folks,

B) I have been joining about 3 club rides/week consistently for about 1.5-2 years now but do not really see improvements in my fitness levels. The distance of these rides varies between 40KM (weekdays) to 80KM (weekends).

Im not at all surprised.
Im busy tonight but will come back another time with some ideas. Others can have some input first.

Something to consider though:

If you can afford a powermeter you can afford a coach to decifer the data for you. Data is useless if you dont know how to use it.

On a scale of 0-10 as far as usefullness is concerned, bunch rides rate about a 2.

Back later

[Alex Simmons/RST]

i. DD will have a range of useful things to say. Listen.

ii. My question (as a coach who's probably about as experienced with the topic of training and racing with power as any) isn't to do with using power meters/training - it's to understand what it is you are trying to achieve.

"improving overall performance" is a bit vague.

Perhaps if you can elaborate on what you want to improve performance for.
What is it you want to get out of your cycling and training?
Why do you want to "improve performance"?

The above considerations may impact what advice follows.

I'd suggest that much of what you are likely to need to do to attain your goals is perfectly well attainable with or without a power meter, but since you have one and want to learn how to get at least some value from it, then you can help us to help you with some more insight into your motivations.

[petepetepete]

Perhaps if you can elaborate on what you want to improve performance for.
What is it you want to get out of your cycling and training?
Why do you want to "improve performance"?

First of all, thank you for your fast and informative responses so far.

It is a good question. I come from a professional background in a different sport and am used to train for improvement. Whilst i only cycle for recreational purposes, I cannot help myself but want to know as much insights as i can in order to train more effectively.
To answer your question, I would like to do Amy's Gran Fondo (130KM) whith a good overall fitness level. If all goes well I would add 1-2 other races later on in the season such as Giro Della Donna (125KM). I never felt quite fit or ready for these races and therefore this would be my first ones and i would like to prepare properly. Whilst i believe that training can be done without a power meter, I might as well make use of it since i have it now.

I am excited to hear DD's recommendations and any further feedback on my post above.
Thank you.

[RobertL]

A2 - I ride/train/race with 3 second power and lap power (along with lap time and HR). That is all I need, I know my zones.

and Lap Distance, for me. Some of the efforts I do are based on time, some on distance.

I'm interested in how you go, petepetepete. I've recently started training with a power meter, and I have a coach setting out my program.

I think that it's improving me, but it might be a bit early to tell at this stage.

[petepetepete]

A1 - The book that did it for me was Training and Racing with a Power Meter by Hunter Allen, Andrew R. Coggan and Stephen Mcgregor Currently in 3rd edition, 2nd edition is my bible, much easier to read the Friel (and I am a data freak).

If you want to ease in, I would start with Dylan Johnson on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIf1xv ... _VfLgj_dow

A2 - I ride/train/race with 3 second power and lap power (along with lap time and HR). That is all I need, I know my zones.

B - when did you last test your FTP? You should not be regularly riding above your FTP for an hour or more, otherwise your current FTP is to low. My method, because I can do it at least once a month without destroying myself or training schedule, ride 8 minutes flat out, recover 8 minutes, 8 minutes flat out. Your FTP is 90% of the average of the two 8 minute blocks.

B1 YES if the end result is your are feeling like that after every ride, once a week is fine, but you are probably not recovering enough between club rides.

B2 Set your goals, work out how to structure your training to get there, then work if can you do it with club rides, riding alone or a mix. Including dropping down a level/group with the group ride.

C1 Riding so hard you need to pig out after every ride

C2 If I knew I would be skinny and rich. After riding at 82 to 85kg for last 8 years, dropped 7kg in 2018, 2019 got sick, ate too much chocolate, drank too much beer and put the 7kg back on. Struggling to get back down again.

To lose weight, my advice would be not to ride so hard so often. Do one 3 hour or so endurance ride a week fasted. Ride at least three or four times a week, excluding recovery rides.

Thank you for your useful tips.
I started watching the Dylan Johnson youtube channel and agree it is very helpful and easy to understand.
I also bought the book you recommended.

[you cannot be sirrus]

Perhaps if you can elaborate on what you want to improve performance for.
What is it you want to get out of your cycling and training?
Why do you want to "improve performance"?

To answer your question, I would like to do Amy's Gran Fondo (130KM) whith a good overall fitness level.

Too vague IMO. My goal the last 2 years was to do AGF in a qualifying time for the UCI worlds. Failed both times, just, but I had a "good overall fitness level" whatever that means.
You need a goal that is more specific like wanting to qualify (top 25%) or wanting sub 4 hours.
For a 130km ride like AGF I'd be doing heaps of sweet spot and 30 minute climbs arpund FTP.
Sounds like you FTP isn't accurate so step 1 is to do a proper test.
You'll get loads of good advice from Alex and DD, plus others in here.

[petepetepete]

Thank you for your feedback. To be honest, I find it hard to be more precise, given that i have never done this race before. It might be a bit too optimistic to qualify in the top 25% in my age group (35-39) given the above. I also do not know what time i can aspire. I just want to be prepared. I understand your argument but am not sure how to address this.

[Derny Driver]

Welcome to the forum Pete, and isnt the cycling community made up of beautiful people. I mean that. Nicobec has spent best part of an hour writing a well thought out reply to a complete stranger ... and you need to google "Alex Simmons cycling coach" to see who you are talking to there. Alex is a world authority on the scientific aspects of cycling.
You know, anybody can hop on a bike and ride it, but there are so many variables and so many aspects of technique and they are all critical. If you have poor technique it will hinder every attempt you make to improve. Cycling is a thinking mans sport, the best riders are all intelligent people. They analyse what they are doing and constantly adjust and compensate.
When my son started riding I would ride next to him and tell him to change up a gear now, change down, relax your ankles, keep your upper body perfectly still, I would tweak his bike setup, tell him when to wear arm warmers and a jacket, what to eat before a race, when to warm up, how hard to warm up, when to sit down going up hill, when to stand up, how to sprint, what part of the road to ride on, how hard to pump his tyres in wet weather, dry weather ....everything, until it becomes second nature. Its not just about getting the power sorted and the training schedule set, its also about nutrition, sleep, work-life-family balance. You have already noted a lot of this stuff in your post. And you seem like a smart guy who thinks about what he is doing. Many dont.
The power meter: They have their good and bad points but I will let Alex deal with that. Its not the answer to all your troubles. Its a tool which can help you train at the right level of intensity. I did a gig with one of the NRS teams who have a powermeter sponsor the other year and in return they gave me a powermeter for my son to use. He sends all his data to a coach friend of ours who is more knowledgable than me with this stuff. I dont even look at it. And I think you would be well advised to find a coach that can show you and teach you how to use the data and what to make of it. I agree with sirrius that your FTP is highly unlikely to be accurate and you need to get some decent base line tests done before you can really start making sense of it.
Weight: The NRS guys all meticulously measure their calorie input and their energy expenditure out training and make sure the intake is just less than the output. But they are all young whippetts who really need to be 60-65 kilso to perform at that level. For yourself I think the idea of losing weight needs to take a back seat at the moment. If you get a good balance of riding happening along with a sensible healthy diet, the weight may come down. Then again, it may not. Maybe 90kg is your ideal weight. Who knows but dont stress about that at the moment.
Bunch rides: Great for socialising, safety, enjoyment, bunch skills ... not great for improving anything else. Just do 1 per week (pick your favourite).
Other rides: You need variety Pete. Doing the same rides with the same bunch on the same days, youve plateaued (on a very low level piece of topography). To improve you must add variety - variety in speed / effort and distance. I am guessing that you are, as others have said, riding too hard. Most of your rides need to be nice and easy, call them recovery pace or Zone 1/2 or whatever you want, but the effort needs to be very mild. When you get home you should be thinking " I feel like I should have done more, I dont feel tired at all". Thats a good result. Thats your bread and butter rides each week. At least 3 like that.
Fast rides: Slow rides should be slow, and fast rides should be fast (and short). When you make an effort, make it a good one - short, sharp, fast. I used to do a 60k easy pace loop and throw in a 4km full gas time trial along a section of road, only on the days when I felt super energetic. But only 4k out of 60. Sometimes I would do a 150 metre full gas sprint in a particular spot before reverting back to my 25kph easy pace. But you need to listen to your body and if you are tired, you dont stress the system. I sometimes watch the NSWIS track riders train, if one of them does a sprint effort and the numbers are down, they are told to warm down and go home. You dont stress a body that is tired because that will tear you down, not build you up.

Thats probably enough for now ...as others have said, tell us more. Where do you live?

[you cannot be sirrus]

Thank you for your feedback. To be honest, I find it hard to be more precise, given that i have never done this race before. It might be a bit too optimistic to qualify in the top 25% in my age group (35-39) given the above. I also do not know what time i can aspire. I just want to be prepared. I understand your argument but am not sure how to address this.

Last year your age group qualifying speed was 34kph. For 3h40ish You need to train for something similar. The key is to get up the first 10km climb in the front group and then stay with them if you can

[g-boaf]

Hi Folks,

Apologies in advance if the below points have been discussed already. I did take the time to skim through previous threats related to Power Meters but couldn't quite find the answers to my questions yet.

A: Both books are good. There is also one Time Crunched Cyclist by a guy whose name escapes me at 9:40pm in the evening. But the time crunched cyclist thing might be too intense for some people. But it's okay to read and get a good balance of ideas from all the various different people and find what works for you. I don't think there is one absolute golden rule, there are a few of them and something in the middle is probably what will work for you.

B: This sounds like you need to do an FTP test, or do a ramp test and approximate FTP from that if you don't feel like doing an entire flat out 20 minute (or 60 minute) FTP test, depending on whose protocol you are using. If you stuff up the ramp test, it's not 15-20 minutes max effort ruined, so you don't feel like swearing and cursing quite so much because you mucked it up. The classic FTP test is also about technique too, knowing how to gradually increase your effort to the finish, without blowing yourself up too early.

The Time Crunched Cycling guy does 2x8 minute flat out efforts with a recovery in between and observes the difference in between them like cardiac drift (Nick does the same thing by the sound of it). Doing this indoors on a trainer, with the right equipment you can add even more data to it if you wanted, but then it's a matter of is there a point, do you need all that. Probably not. If you are doing that on the road the 2x8 protocol might be difficult because of traffic interruptions, etc. I 'm not a fan of power tests out on the road or cycleways.

Commute rides should never be hard training rides!

Find a velodrome and smash it or use an indoor trainer. The indoor trainers (Tacx Neo, Wahoo Kickr, etc) are all good options. Once you've got the FTP, take 0.95 of that and use this number for your FTP.

B (part 2): Club rides are somewhat okay, riding in the group and all that, but I reckon you are good to get out with a few people and do some big rides, 150-200km once a week. These are very good. Learn to work with them, get efficient. That's where some of the speed comes from. I won't badger you into descending like a demon, but learn to do that safely. Safely isn't slow, it's fairly fast, but not taking the big risk, especially if you are on roads where you've not ridden before.

40km or 80km rides are not much at all. My afternoon daily commute is 50km, with a loaded backpack. I've got the kilometres (more than 3200km so far) and I'm feeling the benefits of it. I'm like a diesel engine, I'll just sit there and keep turning those pedals over relentlessly.

C: I shudder at some of the diet ideas. I don't like intermittent fasting ideas, I worry they aren't sustainable and you are at risk of bouncing back (in a bad way). If you are feeling bloated after rides, what are you eating before those rides, or during them, what are you drinking, are you having energy gels? Something there is the culprit. Some drink mixes and gels are absolutely terrible for this sort of thing. Riding is the way to release the stress - my 50-60km afternoon commute home is the relax time.

I prefer the idea of eating adequately for your big rides so you don't run out of energy, then your easier rides you might aim for a slight deficit with the idea of dropping kilos that way, but sustainably and not in a rush, just take it gradually. I also think you shouldn't just cut out the things you like, just have them in moderation. Food should not just be good for you, but it's got to taste good as well or you'll hate it very quickly.

Alternate your rides between harder ones and easier ones. Unless you are lucky and getting massage and doing everything good for recovery at the end of each big ride, there is no way you can really do every ride day after day absolutely flat out. Or maybe you can, I cannot. I get tired, my legs get sore sometimes, etc. Even without a power meter, your body is telling you it needs recovery, listen to it. Derny Driver hinted on that with the NSWIS track riders anecdote. Part of it is allowing the recovery to happen.

The more you ride, the more you'll learn what you can manage. And recovery isn't always just sit on the lounge doing nothing. It might be going for a 30 minute walk in the evening after a long bike ride, maybe a 45 minute easy bike ride with very low TSS and IF, spinning at a level that feels even slightly too easy, use the foam roller or the rumble roller. There is a good reason for that.

Maybe also not just alternate between easy and hard rides, but easier and harder weeks too.

I think the way to prepare for big rides 100km+ with 3000m elevation or so is simply to try and simulate as much as possible the worst climbs you'll face. I'm used to doing 20km+ climbs with 1500m elevation and topping out over 2500m or more.

I don't have those around the corner from me, so I just simulate them on the trainer using the software I have (PerfPro). I can go and map out the climb on strava routes, download it and put that as a course and use the smoothing to knock out irregularities. Or I can just set a boring specific workout say 4x10min at 60rpm, 6% simulated gradient and use the gears as needed and just stay at the power level I'm aiming at. As I said, I don't have a Galibier or Madeleine right around the corner from my home, but those uncomfortable workouts are enough preparation for that. You feel like, yeah, I can either spin up this hill or I can just push a bigger gear and either way will work because in a way you've done it already. This is also where those 40km and 80km rides are useless, they don't prepare you for these huge rides. These big rides also are about eating the right way during a ride so you don't "bonk". And doing these big rides is also about safety too, you are adequately prepared so if things don't work right at your event you know that you can just back off, go easier and get home.

That's all I've got - I don't really get into this sort of stuff too much anymore. There are some super clever people who've replied above who you should also listen to.

[nickobec]

Commute rides should never be hard training rides!

I disagree, but that is because my commute lends it self to training. Well the almost 20 km of uninterrupted flat cycle path with minimal traffic (another use cyclist, jogger or walker every 2km or so in fine weather) does.

Until the current batch of road work, one commute a week was threshold intervals for 20km, 8km of "recovery" then join a club run 5km into 30 km ride/smashfest. As this was good training for the end of races I was doing.

ps the Time Crunched Cyclist is by Chris Carmichael and Jim Rutberg, read it, understood the principles and never touched it again, unlike Racing and Training with a Power Meter.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Some good thoughts from everyone. Just for clarity from my part:

I don't think the goal needs to be so performance specific when one is new and has little baseline information to go on. In that case, indeed with most cases, it's often better to focus on process goals rather than outcome goals. Outcomes tend to look after themselves if the process is good.

You have goals to ride in some events, so that's useful. I'd put aside where you might finish at this stage as there are more important things to work on, one being the fitness and endurance to finish, the other being your ability to manage yourself in a large group and/or with a lot of riders around you. I'm with DD on the diet/weight side. Apply good training, don't eat crappy foods and usually the weight will look after itself. If it doesn't, then it'll be something to examine more closely but for now, don't stress that stuff.

I think if I were to suggest a couple of things for using the power meter:

i. for the time being just record what you are doing - keep the data somewhere it is accessible/downloadable later.

ii. Don't stare at it while riding. You eyes are better used for other things, safety most importantly.

When ready (and if sufficiently healthy), you can can set down some baseline fitness markers, usually a longer (~20-min) and a shorter (~3-5 min) test efforts. It helps to assess a couple of fundamental fitness parameters which you can assess again at a later stage and define some training levels for you to then be able to follow DD's training advice.

You don't need power measurement to follow that advice but what can happen is people often don't realise when they are riding too hard or too softly, so this is where the PM's feedback can moderate your own sense of perceived exertion (power and perceived exertion work together, this is part of training with power, not by power). Riders of different morphology and fitness sense a different intensity response as the terrain and scenario varies, which is why many groups rides can be unhelpful. The right sort of group can be very useful in training well but finding the right sort of group isn't easy.

As for basic principles (with or without a power meter):

i. Consistency is #1.
Improving fitness requires you to train consistently. This requires a level of dedication to the cause (which comes back to the motivation questions I ask up front). Improving fitness isn't one of those things where you can cram it all into the final week or two before an event, or try to "make up" for not riding last week. It requires consistent, frequent riding and persistence over long periods (months and years). How much and how frequently is right for you will depend on your individual situation.

ii. Gradual progression with workload.
Gradually and consistently increase your workload as the weeks progress. There are some clever ways of monitoring this with power meter data, but for now adding 15-20 minutes/week to your ride duration for say the next 6-8 weeks is about right. Occasionally (say every month) you can toss in an extra long ride. It'll be enough to stimulate ongoing improvements which may seem imperceptible as you go. Keep the PM data, and when you learn about getting analysis software settings right, then you will begin to see some patterns emerge with some key charts. Train well first, look at patterns/analysis later. As the years progress these patterns provide useful information for what you might do differently next time.

iii. Recovery as required.
Have some rest/recovery as needed (gauging the need for recovery takes some experience but if you get #ii right, it's not needed as much/often as many might think during periods where one is building their aerobic fitness). It may not need to be a long recovery period, perhaps a week where you have an extra day off, or leave out the hard ride, or drop the ride week's duration back by 2-3 hours. If however you'd gone too hard, too quickly and/or for too long relative to what you've been doing of late, then you'll probably need more recovery.

iv. Mix of intensities
How hard you ride matters but it matters less than getting #i, #ii and #iii right.
By mix of intensities I mean the mix of easy, moderate and hard efforts.
There are "training intensity distribution debates/wars" which rage all the time. Many would have you believe one mix is significantly superior to another but in reality it is no where near as definitive as many would make it out to be, nor are many of the studies in the published literature universally applicable (let alone relevant) even though many have applied them as such. Some have ideology views about "sweetspot is brilliant" or "avoid this dead zone like the plague", "polarised training is superior", "threshold is evil" and so on. The evidence in support of taking such definitive positions isn't so strong. Then there is the old chestnut of "what the pros do" as if that's going to be relevant.

That said, the general principles about the mix of rides/ride intensities which DD outlines are pretty good and the reason they are good is riding this way tends to naturally lend itself to getting principles i., ii. and iii. right.

So using that as a guide is a decent place to start for anyone, and indeed one may never need to change from that ever.

But it is entirely possible to get excellent results with a completely different mix of intensity provided those first three principles are applied well. It's just a bit harder to get it right and this is where experience with and understanding of PM data comes into play. It can lead to more efficient ways of making progress.

As one gains experience and goals progress towards more race like scenarios or higher level of fitness aspiration, then changing the mix of intensity through the season becomes another factor.

[petepetepete]

Last year your age group qualifying speed was 34kph. For 3h40ish You need to train for something similar. The key is to get up the first 10km climb in the front group and then stay with them if you can

Thank you that is helpful. Where do I find this information?

[petepetepete]

A: Both books are good. There is also one Time Crunched Cyclist by a guy whose name escapes me at 9:40pm in the evening. But the time crunched cyclist thing might be too intense for some people. But it's okay to read and get a good balance of ideas from all the various different people and find what works for you. I don't think there is one absolute golden rule, there are a few of them and something in the middle is probably what will work for you.

Thank you, I will have a look at it.

B: This sounds like you need to do an FTP test, or do a ramp test and approximate FTP from that if you don't feel like doing an entire flat out 20 minute (or 60 minute) FTP test, depending on whose protocol you are using. If you stuff up the ramp test, it's not 15-20 minutes max effort ruined, so you don't feel like swearing and cursing quite so much because you mucked it up. The classic FTP test is also about technique too, knowing how to gradually increase your effort to the finish, without blowing yourself up too early.

I will do another FTP test on Sunday to see how far off the current result is.

Commute rides should never be hard training rides!

I am not doing any commute rides at the moment, so that shouldnt be an issue.

B (part 2): Club rides are somewhat okay, riding in the group and all that, but I reckon you are good to get out with a few people and do some big rides, 150-200km once a week. These are very good. Learn to work with them, get efficient. That's where some of the speed comes from. I won't badger you into descending like a demon, but learn to do that safely. Safely isn't slow, it's fairly fast, but not taking the big risk, especially if you are on roads where you've not ridden before.

40km or 80km rides are not much at all. My afternoon daily commute is 50km, with a loaded backpack. I've got the kilometres (more than 3200km so far) and I'm feeling the benefits of it. I'm like a diesel engine, I'll just sit there and keep turning those pedals over relentlessly.

I understand and admire your form but that seems unachievable in my current situation. I am trying to get there.

C: I shudder at some of the diet ideas. I don't like intermittent fasting ideas, I worry they aren't sustainable and you are at risk of bouncing back (in a bad way). If you are feeling bloated after rides, what are you eating before those rides, or during them, what are you drinking, are you having energy gels? Something there is the culprit. Some drink mixes and gels are absolutely terrible for this sort of thing. Riding is the way to release the stress - my 50-60km afternoon commute home is the relax time.

Before the ride, I usually eat Oats with Nuts and Almond Milk. During the ride i drink SisGo Electrolyte and SisGo gels. For 80km i have 2 bottles of the drink and 2 gels.

Thank you for all other advice, it makes a lot of sense.

[petepetepete]

Welcome to the forum Pete, and isnt the cycling community made up of beautiful people. I mean that. Nicobec has spent best part of an hour writing a well thought out reply to a complete stranger ... and you need to google "Alex Simmons cycling coach" to see who you are talking to there. Alex is a world authority on the scientific aspects of cycling.
You know, anybody can hop on a bike and ride it, but there are so many variables and so many aspects of technique and they are all critical. If you have poor technique it will hinder every attempt you make to improve. Cycling is a thinking mans sport, the best riders are all intelligent people. They analyse what they are doing and constantly adjust and compensate.
When my son started riding I would ride next to him and tell him to change up a gear now, change down, relax your ankles, keep your upper body perfectly still, I would tweak his bike setup, tell him when to wear arm warmers and a jacket, what to eat before a race, when to warm up, how hard to warm up, when to sit down going up hill, when to stand up, how to sprint, what part of the road to ride on, how hard to pump his tyres in wet weather, dry weather ....everything, until it becomes second nature. Its not just about getting the power sorted and the training schedule set, its also about nutrition, sleep, work-life-family balance. You have already noted a lot of this stuff in your post. And you seem like a smart guy who thinks about what he is doing. Many dont.
The power meter: They have their good and bad points but I will let Alex deal with that. Its not the answer to all your troubles. Its a tool which can help you train at the right level of intensity. I did a gig with one of the NRS teams who have a powermeter sponsor the other year and in return they gave me a powermeter for my son to use. He sends all his data to a coach friend of ours who is more knowledgable than me with this stuff. I dont even look at it. And I think you would be well advised to find a coach that can show you and teach you how to use the data and what to make of it. I agree with sirrius that your FTP is highly unlikely to be accurate and you need to get some decent base line tests done before you can really start making sense of it.
Weight: The NRS guys all meticulously measure their calorie input and their energy expenditure out training and make sure the intake is just less than the output. But they are all young whippetts who really need to be 60-65 kilso to perform at that level. For yourself I think the idea of losing weight needs to take a back seat at the moment. If you get a good balance of riding happening along with a sensible healthy diet, the weight may come down. Then again, it may not. Maybe 90kg is your ideal weight. Who knows but dont stress about that at the moment.
Bunch rides: Great for socialising, safety, enjoyment, bunch skills ... not great for improving anything else. Just do 1 per week (pick your favourite).
Other rides: You need variety Pete. Doing the same rides with the same bunch on the same days, youve plateaued (on a very low level piece of topography). To improve you must add variety - variety in speed / effort and distance. I am guessing that you are, as others have said, riding too hard. Most of your rides need to be nice and easy, call them recovery pace or Zone 1/2 or whatever you want, but the effort needs to be very mild. When you get home you should be thinking " I feel like I should have done more, I dont feel tired at all". Thats a good result. Thats your bread and butter rides each week. At least 3 like that.
Fast rides: Slow rides should be slow, and fast rides should be fast (and short). When you make an effort, make it a good one - short, sharp, fast. I used to do a 60k easy pace loop and throw in a 4km full gas time trial along a section of road, only on the days when I felt super energetic. But only 4k out of 60. Sometimes I would do a 150 metre full gas sprint in a particular spot before reverting back to my 25kph easy pace. But you need to listen to your body and if you are tired, you dont stress the system. I sometimes watch the NSWIS track riders train, if one of them does a sprint effort and the numbers are down, they are told to warm down and go home. You dont stress a body that is tired because that will tear you down, not build you up.

Thats probably enough for now ...as others have said, tell us more. Where do you live?

Thank you DD for all the useful information. I am aware that it must have taken quite some time to write this and appreciate your time.
What you write makes a lot of sense and i will take it on board.

[you cannot be sirrus]

https://amysgranfondo.org.au/results/

[petepetepete]

Thank you for your extensive reply Alex. This is incredibly structured and very helpful.

I don't think the goal needs to be so performance specific when one is new and has little baseline information to go on. In that case, indeed with most cases, it's often better to focus on process goals rather than outcome goals. Outcomes tend to look after themselves if the process is good.

I totally agree. I am also happy to let my progress or form inform what events i should include.

You have goals to ride in some events, so that's useful. I'd put aside where you might finish at this stage as there are more important things to work on, one being the fitness and endurance to finish, the other being your ability to manage yourself in a large group and/or with a lot of riders around you. I'm with DD on the diet/weight side. Apply good training, don't eat crappy foods and usually the weight will look after itself. If it doesn't, then it'll be something to examine more closely but for now, don't stress that stuff.

Understood.

i. Consistency is #1.
Improving fitness requires you to train consistently. This requires a level of dedication to the cause (which comes back to the motivation questions I ask up front). Improving fitness isn't one of those things where you can cram it all into the final week or two before an event, or try to "make up" for not riding last week. It requires consistent, frequent riding and persistence over long periods (months and years). How much and how frequently is right for you will depend on your individual situation.

I get this point. This is why i am trying to assess how to look at training from a more holistic point of view and then setup a tailored training for my available ride days.

ii. Gradual progression with workload.
Gradually and consistently increase your workload as the weeks progress. There are some clever ways of monitoring this with power meter data, but for now adding 15-20 minutes/week to your ride duration for say the next 6-8 weeks is about right. Occasionally (say every month) you can toss in an extra long ride. It'll be enough to stimulate ongoing improvements which may seem imperceptible as you go. Keep the PM data, and when you learn about getting analysis software settings right, then you will begin to see some patterns emerge with some key charts. Train well first, look at patterns/analysis later. As the years progress these patterns provide useful information for what you might do differently next time.

I like the idea of a 15-20min increase/week. It seems simple enough to apply. This would be for the rides in Zone 2, right?

iii. Recovery as required.
Have some rest/recovery as needed (gauging the need for recovery takes some experience but if you get #ii right, it's not needed as much/often as many might think during periods where one is building their aerobic fitness). It may not need to be a long recovery period, perhaps a week where you have an extra day off, or leave out the hard ride, or drop the ride week's duration back by 2-3 hours. If however you'd gone too hard, too quickly and/or for too long relative to what you've been doing of late, then you'll probably need more recovery.

Makes sense. If i was to start over, do i have some rest off the bike now or would a week be enough to allow my body to recover? This is probably hard to tell via a forum discussion.

iv. Mix of intensities
How hard you ride matters but it matters less than getting #i, #ii and #iii right.
By mix of intensities I mean the mix of easy, moderate and hard efforts.
There are "training intensity distribution debates/wars" which rage all the time. Many would have you believe one mix is significantly superior to another but in reality it is no where near as definitive as many would make it out to be, nor are many of the studies in the published literature universally applicable (let alone relevant) even though many have applied them as such. Some have ideology views about "sweetspot is brilliant" or "avoid this dead zone like the plague", "polarised training is superior", "threshold is evil" and so on. The evidence in support of taking such definitive positions isn't so strong. Then there is the old chestnut of "what the pros do" as if that's going to be relevant.

I understand. Point i-iii first.

Thank you so much for taking the time and structuring this so well that i can understand.

[g-boaf]

Before the ride, I usually eat Oats with Nuts and Almond Milk. During the ride i drink SisGo Electrolyte and SisGo gels. For 80km i have 2 bottles of the drink and 2 gels.

Thank you for all other advice, it makes a lot of sense.

So I suspect one or both of these might be causing the discomfort. Maybe dilute the drink mix more, or also leave out the gels too.

Maybe leave the gels out at first and see how that goes. If you’ve had a good meal before the ride, that should see you through it.

The rest is just building things up steadily as the others suggested.

[Derny Driver]

Before the ride, I usually eat Oats with Nuts and Almond Milk. During the ride i drink SisGo Electrolyte and SisGo gels. For 80km i have 2 bottles of the drink and 2 gels.

Thank you for all other advice, it makes a lot of sense.

So I suspect one or both of these might be causing the discomfort. Maybe dilute the drink mix more, or also leave out the gels too.

Maybe leave the gels out at first and see how that goes. If you’ve had a good meal before the ride, that should see you through it.

Agree. For 40k, 1 bidon of water only.
For 80k, 2 SMALL bidons of water maximum and half a muesli bar.
Throw the electrolyte and gels away. Flavour the water with very weak cordial if you must.
And dont eat directly before you ride.

[petepetepete]

Before the ride, I usually eat Oats with Nuts and Almond Milk. During the ride i drink SisGo Electrolyte and SisGo gels. For 80km i have 2 bottles of the drink and 2 gels.

Thank you for all other advice, it makes a lot of sense.

So I suspect one or both of these might be causing the discomfort. Maybe dilute the drink mix more, or also leave out the gels too.

Maybe leave the gels out at first and see how that goes. If you’ve had a good meal before the ride, that should see you through it.

Agree. For 40k, 1 bidon of water only.
For 80k, 2 SMALL bidons of water maximum and half a muesli bar.
Throw the electrolyte and gels away. Flavour the water with very weak cordial if you must.
And dont eat directly before you ride.

Okay. I was worried about bonking for the 80K ride. With the 40K ride i actually only have water as you suggest.

[nickobec]

Agree. For 40k, 1 bidon of water only.
For 80k, 2 SMALL bidons of water maximum and half a muesli bar.
Throw the electrolyte and gels away. Flavour the water with very weak cordial if you must.
And dont eat directly before you ride.

I find Derny Driver a hard task master

For me a 40km ride one bidon in winter. two in summer. If I am doing efforts one bidon will contain weak sports drink.

80km+ ride, two bidons, one or both might contain weak sports drink depending on what efforts I am doing, might add a banana and maybe a muesli bar for post ride snack.

Pre ride food, try for two hours before ride so it is digested. But normally in the morning for me it is light snack (fruit bread or sticky rice and fruit) an hour before I leave.

When you are training for an event, you need to be sure your body can cope will your fuelling strategy for that event. No use training on water, then raceday comes, you use electrolytes and gels and start getting stomach cramps etc midrace.

If your longest training ride is 80km, then by all means have a bottle electrolytes and a gel for the second half of the ride, to prepared you body for the fuelling on longer rides. But as the others have said you need to do longer riders to prep yourself for the 130km AGF and those are the rides you need your fuelling right, you need to work out what is right for your body.

[Derny Driver]

I find Derny Driver a hard task master

What ? Im shocked !!
mate Im a big softy
Im continually told by women that I am "too nice" to date. Might need to get a tattoo or something

PS I dont disagree with anything you wrote in that last post

[petepetepete]

Thanks guys.
What i am taking away from the different fueling posts is that i will try and experiment with the gels and sports drinks by maybe leaving them out and see if my body behaves any different afterwards. Having said that, I generally ride without a sports drink/gel/bar on the short rides and still get quite swollen afterwards. Maybe i wasnt clear on that to begin with.