Tougher E-thing laws proposed to deal with e-thing scoff-laws

[Thoglette]

Proposal to register e-things to combat e-thing riders illegally modifying their e-things
Electric unicyclist's death prompts mother's call for tougher e-vehicle lawsABC online

Remind me of the definition of stupidity again

[MichaelB]

Proposal to register e-things to combat e-thing riders illegally modifying their e-things
Electric unicyclist's death prompts mother's call for tougher e-vehicle lawsABC online

Remind me of the definition of stupidity again

Don't know if registering them is the answer, but noted this in the article ;

"James had tampered with it, and it was tested at going from zero to 126 kilometres an hour in four seconds," his mother Rita Barella told Raf Epstein on ABC Radio Melbourne.

My highlight, but WTH ?????

[Andy01]

That bit caught my attention too - that is some serious acceleration. That would be potentially hazardous for a two wheeled motorbike (in less experienced hands), but on a unicycle

[familyguy]

Stating the obvious that she won't get much sympathy from people if she knows full well that he modified it to well beyond legal, or even well beyond reasonable. I'm assuming this is a multi-use path way? Nice how they mention he swerved to miss 'cyclists'. Not pedestrians. Not a dog. Not a kid. All of which could have been on the trail.

Maybe this can bring to light just how big a loss registration schemes run at. If she was campaigning for free training and/or community education for new users, I'd be all for it. Nobody is going to pay for a licence and training on top of a cost of some of these items. Under 18s? Under 16s, even? Police already have powers to stop people, so what more does she suggest?

I get it. His mum is frustrated, but to say everyone else should do/have done more, is unreasonable.

[jasonc]

yes, PMDs are a problem. No licensing is not the solution. Takes attitude change from the PMD users. You can achieve that by enforcement. Enforcement of the existing laws is the solution. That takes Police to spend time doing it.

edit: Brisbane (and other places in Qld) has problems with personally owned devices. I think I have seen one personal mobility device doing the speed limit in the last fortnight. The rest have been doing well over the speed limit, or on roads where they are not allowed to ride. Banning the sale of devices that allow travel more than 25km/h is the solution

[WyvernRH]

Hmm, even the SMH is joining in... Apart from the clickbait title the article makes some valid points but without really suggesting a solution.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/are-we- ... 5fizy.html

Richard

[Thoglette]

Banning the sale of devices that allow travel more than 25km/h is the solution

It’d be a start.
But like the chap at the center of this debate, most can be hacked. And are being hacked.

[Cyclophiliac]

Any PMD licensing scheme will fail for the exact same reason no bicycle licensing scheme ever succeeded: it's not worth the cost. Enforcement of the laws, and public education, are needed instead.

[Cyclophiliac]

Banning the sale of devices that allow travel more than 25km/h is the solution

It’d be a start.
But like the chap at the center of this debate, most can be hacked. And are being hacked.

In other words, they're just like cars, which can also be illegally modified to do unreasonable speeds.

[find_bruce]

Except cars don't need to be modified to do unreasonable speeds - however it is well understood that unreasonable speeds are a significant factor in many road deaths. Police & others allocate significant resources to enforcing speed limits.

I agree that the resources allocated to preventing unlawful e-devices are approximately zero. We are extremely fortunate that the only person killed or injured in this particular crash was the author of his own demise

[Mr Purple]

yes, PMDs are a problem. No licensing is not the solution. Takes attitude change from the PMD users. You can achieve that by enforcement. Enforcement of the existing laws is the solution. That takes Police to spend time doing it.

edit: Brisbane (and other places in Qld) has problems with personally owned devices. I think I have seen one personal mobility device doing the speed limit in the last fortnight. The rest have been doing well over the speed limit, or on roads where they are not allowed to ride. Banning the sale of devices that allow travel more than 25km/h is the solution

As I said in the other thread such a vanishingly small proportion of e-unicycle, oversized e-scooter and e-bikes that look like motorbikes are actually riding legally that banning all of those devices outright is the only step that can be taken. Basically if anyone riding past you on one of those things is actually doing under 25km/hr it's a coincidence. Banning them outright would inconvenience about five people.

The problem is the very thing that makes them illegal (i.e. the high speed) also makes it next to impossible to catch them while being ridden illegally. I'd go so far to say that next to no-one who buys one of these things has any plans of riding it legally. Make them illegal at the point of sale. Because enforcing the speed limits is close to impossible, and there does not seem to be any political will to do so.

[MichaelB]

yes, PMDs are a problem. No licensing is not the solution. Takes attitude change from the PMD users. You can achieve that by enforcement. Enforcement of the existing laws is the solution. That takes Police to spend time doing it.

edit: Brisbane (and other places in Qld) has problems with personally owned devices. I think I have seen one personal mobility device doing the speed limit in the last fortnight. The rest have been doing well over the speed limit, or on roads where they are not allowed to ride. Banning the sale of devices that allow travel more than 25km/h is the solution

As I said in the other thread such a vanishingly small proportion of e-unicycle, oversized e-scooter and e-bikes that look like motorbikes are actually riding legally that banning all of those devices outright is the only step that can be taken. Basically if anyone riding past you on one of those things is actually doing under 25km/hr it's a coincidence. Banning them outright would inconvenience about five people.

The problem is the very thing that makes them illegal (i.e. the high speed) also makes it next to impossible to catch them while being ridden illegally. I'd go so far to say that next to no-one who buys one of these things has any plans of riding it legally. Make them illegal at the point of sale. Because enforcing the speed limits is close to impossible, and there does not seem to be any political will to do so.

+1,000,000,000,000,000, but sadly will never happen.

Mind you, Howard did ban automatic weapons in Aus ......

[Mr Purple]

+1,000,000,000,000,000, but sadly will never happen.

Mind you, Howard did ban automatic weapons in Aus ......

I actually believe it will happen. And it will happen for the same reason that Howard banned automatic weapons in Australia - there will be an unnecessary and entirely predictable death of one or more innocent people and the severe public backlash will result in a complete ban.

We've seen any number of maniacs on e-devices die already. But we haven't seen (and thankfully) a small child mowed down by one, or some moron flying into a restaurant or cafe on one yet.

This will happen if they continue unchecked. Some of the speeds I've seen around Brisbane pose a risk to low flying aircraft if they get it wrong. And most of them have absolutely no idea what they're doing.

I just hope someone at some level in authority can realise 'this is stupid' before someone innocent actually gets killed.

[Cyclophiliac]

Except cars don't need to be modified to do unreasonable speeds - however it is well understood that unreasonable speeds are a significant factor in many road deaths. Police & others allocate significant resources to enforcing speed limits.

I agree that the resources allocated to preventing unlawful e-devices are approximately zero. We are extremely fortunate that the only person killed or injured in this particular crash was the author of his own demise

PMDs also don't need to be modified to do unreasonable speeds. Yes, they're by design a LOT slower than cars, but any "need" to go faster is only in the minds of impatient people.

[vbplease]

PMDs also don't need to be modified to do unreasonable speeds. Yes, they're by design a LOT slower than cars, but any "need" to go faster is only in the minds of impatient people.

Absolutely!!

In my opinion 25km/h really isn't that slow.. its probably still faster than the average speed of a car in peak hour.

At the risk of knocking the recently deceased further, his mother described him as an "adrenalin junkie".. I'm convinced anyone that rides on those e-UC devices has a screw loose.

Not long ago I was riding with a mate on a road doing 30km/h.. literally out of nowhere we were startled by the sound of plastic exploding on the road next to us.. it was a e-UC rider who crashed right next to us.. he had a spectacular crash and somehow ended on his feet running down the street
A few hundred meters down the road he passes us again doing about 45km/h.. absolute maniac.

[Mr Purple]

I genuinely didn't realise those e-unicycle things don't even have brakes. So 0-126km/hr in 3 seconds on something without brakes? That just seems like an elaborate way to commit suicide.

Three high speed passes by e-scooters this morning, including one guy doing 40km/hr+ over Goodwill bridge. I don't even say anything these days though if there's another cyclist coming the other way, I'll point at the e-device rider and make a certain gesture that lets them know what I think of them. Shows some solidarity at least.

[find_bruce]

I genuinely didn't realise those e-unicycle things don't even have brakes. So 0-126km/hr in 3 seconds on something without brakes? That just seems like an elaborate way to commit suicide.

Our sadly missed friend ColinOldnCranky would have pointed out that brakes on a unicycle are problematic & rarely used except on larger wheels, such as 36" - think about it for a minute - slam the brakes on, get a face full of gravel.

Electric unicycles use powerful motors to balance the rider on top - lean forward & the motor will accelerate the wheels, lean back & it will slow them down. As always there's a limit to how much it can compensate

I would be curious to see what the 0 -> 126 -> 0 time is, by which I mean I'd be happy to watch it on you tube, not from the position of someone who's life depended on it.

[neild]

I don't know what further regulation will do because as the article states the e-UC's are already illegal to ride in public spaces and I see them all the time. Police don't enforce the current laws. Add to that things like obviously over powered E-Bikes or E-Scooters or all the food delivery bikes that are throttle controlled not pedal controlled and it's obvious further regulation won't fix something that isn't being police as it is.

Banning is probably the only option (not that I'm endorsing that) as police are probably already stretched as it is. That would make it clear cut.

A bit similar to driving. I could probably count on one hand the number of police cars I've seen on the highway when driving over the past 6 months. But I couldn't count how many times I've seen people clearly speeding well over the limit in that same period. Relying on regulations and things like speed camera's doesn't help there.

[uart]

I don't know what further regulation will do because as the article states the e-UC's are already illegal to ride in public spaces and I see them all the time.

Yes, I also thought that story was strange, calling for tighter regulations and rego for something that is already illegal and which cannot be registered anyway. Say What?

I don't see a lot of E-UC's around here, but I will say that of the ones I have seen they do seem a bit over-represented in terms of riding in a way that could endanger other path users.

[Andy01]

I don't know what further regulation will do because as the article states the e-UC's are already illegal to ride in public spaces and I see them all the time.

Yes, I also thought that story was strange, calling for tighter regulations and rego for something that is already illegal and which cannot be registered anyway. Say What?

And therein lies the problem - you have a bunch of f@#*wits, and I include drongos with suspended licences, suspended sentences etc, freaky adrenalin junkies (like the son mentioned in the article) and moron parents who buy their kids things without checking laws etc - they are often the people buying and using these things, and they completely disregard the current laws or plead ignorance - so tighter regs will do nothing.

I would suggest that probably half of the schoolkids I see using escooters, ebikes & electric motorbikes in Brisbane are illegal - simply because of them being under 16yo - and that is before we even start on the other laws like helmets, speed, multiple occupancy etc - add those in and the number probably jumps to 75% illegal. And the parents plead ignorance - because they couldn't be bothered checking before buying, or monitoring/policing the use of the device by their kids.

An outright ban where you just can't buy them unless you manage to get a fully black market deal (like an illegal firearm) is the only way to stop them and that will never happen because they are (somewhat correctly) viewed as a environmentally friendly transport option.

I think that additional policing of existing laws is required and much more importantly, enforcing the laws with harsh penalties. One strike and you get a fine, second strike you get a VERY heavy fine and third strike you lose the device immediately, no questions asked. And if all three happen at the same time (eg. a 15yo speeding on a path without a helmet), then the above applies - $2000 fine and loss of device. Something like that might slow things down, maybe.

[Shred11]

This whole situation is surreal.

A woman recently posted on a local FaceBook group, asking for help because she had bought her son an e-scooter and it was “too slow”. “How can we make it go faster like those his friends ride?”

When little bunty comes unstuck and ends up dead or in a wheel chair, being fed through a straw for the rest of his life, she will no doubt be asking for licensing and harsh laws to protect people…

[Mr Purple]

Yes, I also thought that story was strange, calling for tighter regulations and rego for something that is already illegal and which cannot be registered anyway. Say What?

I don't see a lot of E-UC's around here, but I will say that of the ones I have seen they do seem a bit over-represented in terms of riding in a way that could endanger other path users.

Yep. That's the crux of the problem, isn't it?

'My son died because he disregarded every law of the land, every law of physics and every law of common sense. The laws need to be changed to protect people'.

Well it doesn't really matter what we change them to then, does it? Either way he'd still be dead. I honestly don't think I've ever seen an e-unicycle rider riding legally. They are the worst of the lot.

[Mr Purple]

Two people in ICU after another e-scooter fire in Brisbane.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-20/ ... /103749054

[elantra]

Two people in ICU after another e-scooter fire in Brisbane.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-20/ ... /103749054

Crikeys.
Media has been covering loss of homes from fires due to bushfires (drought related) for decades.
And other forms of traditional domestic fire risk factors like Queensland architecture (old wooden homes), smoking in bed etc.
Now it’s battery fires !!!

Despite this being a real worry, undoubtedly the much greater number of E-thingo related casualties is from using them - not charging them.

What depresses me is not that people choose to use these things unsafely, it’s that our governments don’t even have this issue on their radar.
People will always do what they think is a good idea at the time, such as using these as a cost-effective way to go to work or school or to the beach etc

And it’s real easy for governments to pass laws to the effect that it’s an offence to use them in certain ways.
Or in NSW it’s basically an offence to use them anywhere except on private property.

But making a law and enforcing it is 2 different things and government probably knows that.

So are governments actually even starting to think about this (seriously) as an emerging issue ?
Probably not.
And it’s more than an emerging issue - fair dinkum!
It’s just not quite yet a sexy enough issue for our government to really take seriously.
To our societal shame it has to get worse, with more casualties and more media coverage before this issue will be taken “seriously”

It’s 2024 and governments are only motivated to be active on trendy issues that are going to cost them adverse publicity if they don’t have the correct “policy”

[jasonc]

Agree elantra. Unless it's going to boost their ratings they won't do anything