the Crazy eDevice rider thread

[redsonic]

An interesting article about the hazards of lithium batteries in the waste stream:

ABC News



A forensic fire expert demonstrates an interesting way of isolating batteries when charging them at home.

[blizzard]

I was briefly the 'crazy e-device rider' on Saturday - had to meet a mate in Milton which was tricky via public transport from my place.

Bus to the city, where Beam seemed to be promising me the choice of many e-bikes - I refuse to ride a scooter. Only to arrive and their idea of an e-bike is an e-scooter with a seat on it, so no.

Eventually caved and hired a Neuron scooter for the few kilometre journey. Absolutely horrendous. The 25km/hr limit up here is way too fast on something that incompetent, the thumb controlled throttle extremely sensitive and at one point I managed to do a wheelie by accident, and there is the sense the whole time that physics are trying to conspire against you and murder you. And I'm a 300km per week cyclist with plenty of skateboarding experience. Hate to think what they're like for the average punter.

I understand the higher powered e-scooters have better tyres, brakes and stability but I'd hate to be doing well over twice that speed on one.

To make it worse the Uber all the way home wasn't that much more expensive!

The ebikes are not much better, they feel pretty precarious too.

As an aside, commuting from the south side to Milton is how I got back into riding. I was sick of my commute taking between 40 and 70 minutes depending on whether the buses syncd up.

[Andy01]

My 28 yo daughter has been out visiting from London (she has lived and worked there for 5 years) for a few weeks. I was talking to her about hire scooters & bikes here and how they just get dumped anywhere and everywhere.

She said that she has only used one once in London and never again, and that some of her friends use them. Interestingly she said that in London they have very small and strict "drop" zones and that if you try to end a ride outside of a designate drop zone it simply doesn't let you end the ride, so the system keeps charging you until you get it into a designated parking area.

Her experience was that she started the ride, got about 80m down the road (it is illegal, and policed, to ride bikes or scooters on a footpath in London apparently) and the thing just stopped (either battery or malfunction), and because she wasn't stopped inside the designated zone it wouldn't let her end the ride.

She tried pushing it back to where she got it from, but it seemed to be locked up. She ended up carrying the thing (with difficulty - she is 1.52m and weighs 51kg) back to where she got it from to end the ride (luckily she goes to gym regularly) and caught an Uber. She said never again.

Point being - she says that she literally never sees them parked where they shouldn't be because they just keep charging your account otherwise. She did say that sometimes they are parked quite badly, but at least inside a designated zone.

[jasonc]

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/ ... olice-5113

City of London Police say that, on average, around five illegal e-bikes and e-scooters are being seized each week as part of “a crackdown against souped-up bicycles.” The force says that bikes modified to deliver speed and power above the legal limits for electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPCs) are often being used to commit crimes such as drug dealing and phone snatching.

[Cyclophiliac]

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/ ... olice-5113

City of London Police say that, on average, around five illegal e-bikes and e-scooters are being seized each week as part of “a crackdown against souped-up bicycles.” The force says that bikes modified to deliver speed and power above the legal limits for electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPCs) are often being used to commit crimes such as drug dealing and phone snatching.

5 per week, in a city of almost 9 million? <sarcasm>Wow.</sarcasm>

[elantra]

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/ ... olice-5113

City of London Police say that, on average, around five illegal e-bikes and e-scooters are being seized each week as part of “a crackdown against souped-up bicycles.” The force says that bikes modified to deliver speed and power above the legal limits for electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPCs) are often being used to commit crimes such as drug dealing and phone snatching.

5 per week, in a city of almost 9 million? <sarcasm>Wow.</sarcasm>

The part of London covered by the “City of London Police” is only a very small part of the Greater London area so the the number of persons within this jurisdiction would be only a small fraction of 9 million.
But yes, 5 per week is hardly an earth-shattering number, it’s less than one per day.

But no doubt the actual numbers of illegal devices is far higher than the numbers of confiscations suggest.
The comments by local persons (cyclists) in the Road.cc article confirm this, some are scornful of the low numbers that their police are actually targeting.
No doubt the “City of London Police” have been caught on the back foot by the exponential rise in the number of illegal motored devices, and they don’t have the capacity to do more.
But presumably their Media department is hoping that publicising their “successes” will have some deterrent effect

Think back to all those Brit cop shows that our generation used to watch - the Met (Metropolitan Police) are the guys and gals who chase all the hoodlums and hooligans throughout the greater London boroughs.

[antigee]

Meanwhile in Vic looks like a free for all when I'm out and about unless you are really up to no good:

from Vic police press release: (no link as they get archived after a couple of weeks)

"Friday 26 January 2024 2:37am
Police have charged a man after he was intercepted on a private e-scooter in St Kilda on Wednesday afternoon.
South Melbourne and St Kilda police observed a man riding a high-powered e-scooter on Canterbury Road around 4.30pm.

The rider was intercepted, and it was confirmed the scooter had capacity to travel at speeds of up to 110kmh.

The man was searched, and police located what is alleged to be methylamphetamine, heroin, deal bags, scales, a stun gun and cash.

The scooter was impounded....

...The 60-year-old was charged with multiple offences including use unregistered vehicle, drug possession, possess prohibited weapon and drug trafficking."

meanwhile from the same source just for balance:

"Monday 29 January 2024 4:00pm

.....Operation Amity saw police highly visible and enforcing across Victorian roads and highways in an effort to reduce road trauma.....

....A total of 5,206 traffic offences were detected during Operation Amity, including:

• 2,261 speeding offences – 1,742 of these for speeding between 10km/h and 25km/h over the limit

• 301 disqualified, suspended and unlicensed drivers.....

....• 211 mobile phone offences

• 447 unregistered vehicles....."


(edit duplicate text removed)

[jasonc]

the varia was picking it up as a car....

[elantra]

Antisocial behaviour on e-bikes and e-scooters is gathering momentum and making inroads on communities in my local area (Tweed Valley)

So much so that it is getting a lot of attention in the local media.

And I quote:-

“Police are reminding local residents that motorised wheeled devices like scooters, skateboards and hoverboards are illegal in NSW”

“Police say that it is difficult being next to the Queensland border where these devices are legal”

“Officers will patrol in relation to dangerous scooter riding behaviour and anyone detected riding electric scooters on the road will be spoken to in regards to their behaviour. They are illegal unless on private premises”

“Officers often have to explain that NSW laws are different and will issue a warning but penalties can apply”

“Motorised scooters, skateboards or hoverboards are considered motor vehicles, but don’t satisfy the Australian Design Rules and so cannot be registered in NSW and are unable to be insured”

“Power assisted pedal bicycles are legally permitted in NSW but they cannot be propelled exclusively by the motor and cannot exceed 25 km/hr”

“Anyone caught riding an illegal electric powered bicycle on a road or road-related area in NSW can face fines starting from $ 723.”

“NSW Police are currently trialling speed-limited e-scooters for riders 16 years and over in some metropolitan regions, but only those provided through a shared scheme are permitted for use in these areas”

-[End Quote]

I had to spend exactly one hour parked outside the Police Station in a coastal Northern NSW town the other morning.
In this period of time, several illegal e-devices traveled down the footpath beside the main road.
Fortunately it is a wide footpath and there were no untoward incidents to report.
Some of the perpetrators were obviously teenagers.
Some were riding with pilion passengers.
Some were riding without helmets.

Probably in this small window of time I would say that no one was exceeding 25 km/hr, but all were exceeding 12 km/hr
One person was riding along the footpath with an open beer stubby in his left hand, but he was on a pushbike.
It could be that one day he will graduate to an e-bike. But this would not be in his best interests.

[find_bruce]

Was looking at the NSW road rules & was surprised to see that they have a new part Additional rules for electric scooter riders. I was a bit confused because 262-1 is that "A person must not ride an electric scooter on a road" while 262-4 is "A rider of an electric scooter must not ride on a footpath."

The light came on when I realised 262–2 allows Transport for NSW to make publish exemptions for certain areas. They have done so for various trials, previously for Western Sydney Parklands and Australian Botanic Gardens Mount Annan and currently for

• Kogarah
• Albury
• Forster-Tuncurry
• Wollongong
• Armidale
• Lake Macquarie

Note the trials are only for electric scooter shared schemes:

Personal e-scooters remain illegal on NSW roads and road-related areas, including footpaths, shared paths and bicycle lanes.

You can only use these on private property.

Like others have noted, enforcement of this prohibition is sufficiently rare as to be arbitrary

[nezumi]

I had an e-device rider go off on me for riding on the wrong side of a shared path the other day - which, in fairness, I was...... except:
*I was on the wrong side of the path because that's where the beg button for the bike and pedestrian crossing is located
*He was travelling over said crossing in spite of it having a solid red light at the time
*He immediately turned off the share path after passing me and went onto a marked pedestrian only zone.

The location in question (which is now fully finished): https://www.google.com.au/maps/(AT)-37.715 ... ?entry=ttu

[jasonc]

https://nltimes.nl/2024/02/08/e-bikers- ... icles-fast

[jasonc]

There's an "all electric event' called "everything electric Australia". Was on the news in Brisbane tonight. They are showing 100% illegal ebikes (they had pedals, too long to be pmds, and they weren't pedalling)

[blizzard]

The Dutch police have Ebike rollers for testing for illegal E devices. QPS could uses few.

https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/ge ... w-breakers

[Mr Purple]

I've been driving past the signs for these guys for a while - electric motorbike dealership in Capalaba.

They had the headline price on this one today and I thought 'that's not too bad'.

https://www.evmotobrisbane.com.au/stock ... wyld-g-new

$2500 for a genuinely road compliant 3kW e-motorbike with a top speed of 50km/hr and range of 50-70km.

Spend $3900 and you can step up to this.

https://www.evmotobrisbane.com.au/stock ... ld-rrr-new

4kW, 80km/hr and 80km range.

Why in the heck are morons spending up to $6k on equivalently powered e-scooters which are usable in very few situations and far more dangerous? Because they don't have to pay rego and can use bikeways.

Time to crack down on that BS behaviour, I think. If you can literally buy a road registerable electric motorbike for cheaper than an overpowered child's toy I think it's time to start analysing the motives of those who buy them.

[jasonc]

Why in the heck are morons spending up to $6k on equivalently powered e-scooters which are usable in very few situations and far more dangerous? Because they don't have to pay rego and can use bikeways.

they may no longer have a license, or be ineligible for a license

[redsonic]

Why in the heck are morons spending up to $6k on equivalently powered e-scooters which are usable in very few situations and far more dangerous? Because they don't have to pay rego and can use bikeways.

You need a motorcycle licence to ride the faster one

[Andy01]

Mr P, I agree with you but we are thinking like "normal" people, so that doesn't count.

I would guess that the perceived "benefits" of the e-scooter might include;

- No need for a licence (as mentioned above). Probably quite a major plus for many e-scooter riders (either unable, disqualified, underage etc etc), and no costs involved.

- No need for rego, CTP, vehicle insurance etc, so cost savings.

- Not treated like a "vehicle", so less perceived need to obey road rules, wear helmets etc, and less enforcement, so less chance of being caught doing something dodgy (like DUI, mobile phone use, helmet use etc)

- A scooter can be carried/wheeled in a lift or up stairs so no need for parking "issues" or costs, and potentially easier to get it to a powerpoint for charging ?

- A scooter can be taken on trains etc, whereas a motorbike can't.

- Can be used (as mentioned above) on footpaths, shared paths, bike paths etc - in addition to slower roads etc. Most of these fit better with the possible law-avoiding tendencies.

- No doubt a ridiculously high powered scooter is viewed as a "cool" mode of transport with bragging rights, whereas a relatively sensible "underpowered" electric motorbike is derided as a gutless "moped".

I have no doubt that there are others.

[Mr Purple]

Why in the heck are morons spending up to $6k on equivalently powered e-scooters which are usable in very few situations and far more dangerous? Because they don't have to pay rego and can use bikeways.

they may no longer have a license, or be ineligible for a license

This is what I suspect. Given how many high powered scooter riders are wearing full motorbike leathers it stands to reason they were previously motorbike riders who are now temporarily deprived of a licence. Presumably for being antisocial, from what I can see of them.

Annual motorbike registration in Queensland is $586 a year. This I suspect is the other factor.

Pretty small price to pay for something with reasonable power, actual real tyres, decent brakes and the ability to legally ride on any road other than a freeway. It does beggar belief when you consider they've managed to get an actual ADR approved, road registered bike in cheaper than an 'offroad use only' scooter too. I suspect the profit margins on the scooters are remarkably high.

Personally I think any adult riding any stand up scooter looks absolutely ridiculous. No idea why some people think they're 'cool'.

[Andy01]

Personally I think any adult riding any stand up scooter looks absolutely ridiculous. No idea why some people think they're 'cool'.

I certainly don't think they are cool either, but I suspect that many teenage boys and yobbos might because of their ridiculous power to weight ratio (my PMD is faster than yours .... ) - amongst the type of people who want to ride them. Or criminals who want a completely anonymous (no number plates) fast powerful "getaway" vehicle that can go places that police cars can't. Same kind of people who probably think that a "tinkered with" Golf GTi (or similar) that makes popping and farting noises everywhere it goes is cool - I also think they are silly.

[CmdrBiggles]

Personally I think any adult riding any stand up scooter looks absolutely ridiculous. No idea why some people think they're 'cool'.

I certainly don't think they are cool either, but I suspect that many teenage boys and yobbos might because of their ridiculous power to weight ratio (my PMD is faster than yours .... ) - amongst the type of people who want to ride them. Or criminals who want a completely anonymous (no number plates) fast powerful "getaway" vehicle that can go places that police cars can't. Same kind of people who probably think that a "tinkered with" Golf GTi (or similar) that makes popping and farting noises everywhere it goes is cool - I also think they are silly.

They may not look cool, but they are certainly fast and efficient. That has been proven in the US and many European countries too.
I do tower over everything. I can see over cars right up ahead of me, beside me and behind me.
I have been riding an e-scooter for myriad city and suburban commutes since 2020. In Geelong there has been a 14-fold increase in e-scooter numbers since they were provisionally legalised on 5th April 2023. You will very likely see many more e-scooters on the streets as their legal status will be ratified in a couple of months, though the e-scooter hirers will be reigned in with a bit more discipline; that includes the businesses running them too. I served on the initial working group that looked at e-scooters in Melbourne on a trial basis; predictably there was (and still is) chaos and mayhem: the laws that apply e.g. to cyclists also apply to e-scooters and e-bikes, but people using them have a very careless, lily-livered interpretation of what laws apply to them!

[Andy01]

Personally I think any adult riding any stand up scooter looks absolutely ridiculous. No idea why some people think they're 'cool'.

I certainly don't think they are cool either, but I suspect that many teenage boys and yobbos might because of their ridiculous power to weight ratio (my PMD is faster than yours .... ) - amongst the type of people who want to ride them. Or criminals who want a completely anonymous (no number plates) fast powerful "getaway" vehicle that can go places that police cars can't. Same kind of people who probably think that a "tinkered with" Golf GTi (or similar) that makes popping and farting noises everywhere it goes is cool - I also think they are silly.

They may not look cool, but they are certainly fast and efficient. That has been proven in the US and many European countries too.
I do tower over everything. I can see over cars right up ahead of me, beside me and behind me.
I have been riding an e-scooter for myriad city and suburban commutes since 2020. In Geelong there has been a 14-fold increase in e-scooter numbers since they were provisionally legalised on 5th April 2023. You will very likely see many more e-scooters on the streets as their legal status will be ratified in a couple of months, though the e-scooter hirers will be reigned in with a bit more discipline; that includes the businesses running them too. I served on the initial working group that looked at e-scooters in Melbourne on a trial basis; predictably there was (and still is) chaos and mayhem: the laws that apply e.g. to cyclists also apply to e-scooters and e-bikes, but people using them have a very careless, lily-livered interpretation of what laws apply to them!

I am in Brisbane where e-scooters have been legal (theoretically) for some time now (I think we are at least 2 years ahead of Melbourne). My impression is that the hire scooters are a different problem to the privately owned scooters.

The hired scooters are a menace in that people leave them lying around wherever they drop them (blocking paths, bridges etc), they are a hazard on CBD footpaths (to pedestrians), the riders usually don't wear the provided helmets, the riders are often inexperienced and the riders are often under the influence at night. The scooters are, however, at least properly governed to the speed limits and less of an issue outside of the CBD.

Many of the privately owned scooters are a much bigger problem because they are often high powered completely "un-regulated/governed" devices capable of excessive speeds and are used at those excessive speeds on footpaths, shared paths & bike paths. Read back in this thread and you will see reports of ridiculous speeds of over 80km/h (Strava KOMs of double the speed of what a top-cyclist is capable of - obviously set by a PMD rider).

From what I have seen a lot of the privately owned scooters are bought by parents (who don't bother to read the rules/laws, or know them but don't educate their kids) for their kids, so you have kids that are inexperienced riders, and completely illegal (kids under 16yo have to be supervised, which of course they aren't when riding to school one).

I have had two "run-ins" with schoolboys on illegal scooters (riding to school in full uniform). The first was when one of them (I would guess 13 or 14yo, so 100% illegal) plowing into me headfirst (I was riding my bike on a shared path) at speed (well over the 12km/h speed limit for PMDs on shared paths) on the wrong side (my side) of the path around a blind corner at the top of a hill. We both fell off, and the kid picked up the scooter and did a runner without even checking if I was OK (I am 59). The kid was riding a large powerful dual motor scooter capable of doing 75km/h (my camera picked up the make/model). His scooter handlebar hit my (alloy) handlebars and only caused minor damage and I had some bruises & scrapes, but if he had plowed into an elderly pedestrian (or any pedestrian) or a mum & pram the outcome could have been VERY different.

The second was when two schoolboys (both looked well under 16yo, so both illegal) on e-scooters were riding in the road towards me (again I was on my bike) - one was OK, but the other was completely on my side of the road heading towards me at speed while fully turned around (head) talking to his mate who was a little behind him him. When I yelled out a warning (he didn't respond to my bell) he swerved back onto his side of the road and then yelled abuse as he passed me.

My impression (in Brisbane) is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of scooter riders who fully comply with the laws - either intentionally or because they simply don't know them (because they are different to bicycles and cars). There has been some police enforcement around the CBD, but close to zero outside of that. There has also been a rapidly growing increase in emergency room injury treatments and several deaths of scooter rides.

My daughter (who lives/works in London) has recently been out here and indicated that they seem to be far less of a problem there - at least the hired ones because they are more regulated (and particularly the "drop-off"/parking zones which seem to be very tightly GPS controlled) and they are also policed more heavily.

There is no doubt that used properly, they could be very useful, but right now it is a bit like the Wild West out there and I don't see it getting any better for some time to come (probably worse).

[elantra]

…………………

There is no doubt that used properly, they could be very useful, but right now it is a bit like the Wild West out there and I don't see it getting any better for some time to come (probably worse).

Exactly.
Lots of detrimental consequences have resulted from the introduction of under-regulated E-mobility devices.
Is there any Official plan to counter these consequences (such as by regulating them !)

Don’t hold your breath waiting.

Perhaps if it is pointed out that Brisbane might look like the “Wild West” for the 2032 Olympics, the Government may start to think about it.

[jasonc]

…………………

There is no doubt that used properly, they could be very useful, but right now it is a bit like the Wild West out there and I don't see it getting any better for some time to come (probably worse).

Exactly.
Lots of detrimental consequences have resulted from the introduction of under-regulated E-mobility devices.
Is there any Official plan to counter these consequences (such as by regulating them !)

Don’t hold your breath waiting.

agree

Perhaps if it is pointed out that Brisbane might look like the “Wild West” for the 2032 Olympics, the Government may start to think about it.

they won't care about that as it's more than 3 years away. it's another government's problem

[CmdrBiggles]

Regulation of e-scooters will likely be a priority when the e-scooter trial finishes; at this time I am not aware of any drafted regulations or legislation, other than existing laws that apply to cyclists also apply to e-scooters and e-bikes, just as they do for drivers. VicRoads is involved in monitoring the e-scooter trial in the City of Melbourne; Police, where they are seen, on bikes, foot or in patrol cars, have the power to not only fine, but importantly confiscate high-powered scooters, and they have a list of those to check by; a frequent sobering sight is a very high-powered e-scooter tethered securely to a flat-tray for carting off to the pound!

Failure to wear a helmet, riding on a footpath, speeding, careless riding and drink-riding (it is a thing!) all feature prominently in the fines that Police issue. By and large, it is the hired e-scooters causing the most strife. The operators of the e-scooter hire scheme effectively ban riders from future events if the scooter is involved in an accident that is reported to Police.

I had my say at the beginning of this trial, preferring that rigid regulations be put in place before allowing the two companies to operate. As things transpired, a honeypot of money came before commonsense, with the city getting a substantial chunk of money from the hire of each e-scooter in the trial.

My Raptor was bought in Brissy.